Jay (00:28.798)
Yeah. All right. Well, I am super excited about the conversation that we're going to have today. And of course, Sarah and I have been working hard on this series and excited to have you with us, Ara, all the way from the Philippines. I think it's 1 a your time. And so how are you doing? Are you awake? Are you ready for this? How are you feeling?
Ara (00:53.966)
I've been a bit anxious but ready.
Sarah (00:57.457)
We're so happy to have you. I reached out, sorry. I reached out to you because I've been following you on Instagram for a long time and I just absolutely love the content that you produce. Like you're so good at it. You're such a delight to watch on your stories and everything. I think you're so funny. And I've been really excited to see you get into guiding trips.
Ara (00:59.15)
I'm also happy.
Ara (01:15.598)
Thank you.
Sarah (01:24.817)
Like that's, it's such a cool thing and I think you're probably killing it. I mean, I can't wait to hear more about it, but it would be great to get a little background on you and your experience.
Ara (01:38.318)
Okay, well thank you for having me. I'm very honored that I got invited to your show. So a little bit about me. I'm a digital content creator based in the Philippines. So I do a lot of content around Philippines and diving in the Philippines. And of course, my personal experiences as a diver. So originally, I just wanted to do a website about scuba diving and to promote scuba diving.
But through the years it has evolved and my Instagram or social media accounts have grown. And I've built a community around it and I actively promote local diving. And right now I'm slowly transitioning into organizing trips in my home country because I feel like a lot of people have been showing interest in visiting and diving with me. So I was like, okay, might as well try it and see how it goes.
Sarah (02:39.505)
Awesome, amazing. And can I ask your pronouns for this interview just so that we all can communicate appropriately? Awesome. I'm she her as well. I'm Sarah. I haven't introduced myself, but and then we have Jay with he him. Perfect. Thank you so much for giving us some background. So in this conversation, we're going to be talking about race.
Ara (02:47.086)
She and her.
Jay (02:56.542)
He and his, yeah, him.
Ara (02:59.502)
Yeah.
Sarah (03:08.337)
And I will say just so people know, I'm sure they already do, but I am a token white girl here in the conversation. So I'm excited to hear from you guys. My background, like my family background is Irish and Scottish. So can't get whiter than that. But Jay, you want to share your background?
Jay (03:25.79)
the
Ara (03:27.342)
I'm sorry.
Jay (03:33.758)
Yeah, so I have a very interesting background because I haven't shared this publicly, I don't think, in any form. But I'm Filipino, so the cat is out of the bag. Woo woo, Ara, you and I. But I was my father who, and I'll talk about my Filipino side, comes from my grandmother, right, and that line of.
Sarah (03:47.825)
We got a Filipino. Yeah.
Jay (04:02.974)
heritage for me. So my father left when I was very young, one or two. And he with him took all of that kind of cultural knowledge and being raised in the idea of being Filipino. My mom, on the other hand, is kind of like you, Sarah, you know, very, I think, UK and Irish, and a little bit of American Indian. And so, you know, white, white.
minus the American Indian. And so I was raised in a very predominantly, I would say culturally white way. I actually had no view of myself other than that. I had no view of myself as a Filipino or as a person of color growing up. And talking to my mom about it, and mom, I love you, but let's talk about this later in life, much later in life.
You know, she, she would use phrases like, you know, I was worried about you being a mixed race and I was worried about how you might get treated. And so she very much so insulated me from my, my cultural identity of being Filipino. Of course I was raised very white. You know, I had a few Filipino friends, but you know, it reminds me of South Park and the character token, you know, that's kind of how I felt, you know, but I've never identified anything about white years later.
And again, I won't mention names here, but I had an experience where we were, my wife was pregnant with our first child. Things were a little hairy in the moments with the child caring and special birth and all that. And so I call it Dr. Doom and I laugh about it now, but at the time it wasn't funny at all. But it was kind of Dr. Doom came into the room and told us all of the millions of things that could go wrong.
and graphic detail. It was pretty horrific. And after that, a nurse came into the room and said, hey, well, we need you to sign some paperwork that you've been informed of all this and get some information from you. And so it's the typical medical information, your name, your age, your date of birth, all of that. And they get to the question of ethnicity. And of course, my wife says she is white and no one in the room pushes her up.
Jay (06:26.878)
They get to me and I say, you know, my name, my age, my birth, and they get to ethnicity. And I also say white because that's how I saw myself at the time. This is later in life. And everyone in the room, which are close family members to me, does this like whatever sound you want to make, right? It's like choking on, you know, like almost laughing like what? Like, no, you're not. And it hit me in that moment.
Ara (06:45.422)
Hahaha!
Jay (06:56.03)
And as I processed that moment, holy crap, they don't see me as white. I do, but they don't see me that way. And that led me on this journey of like, holy crap, all of these instances in my life, that has been true. I just wasn't aware of it. And so that's kind of been my history. And now as a father, you know, with, with reconciling these things, you know, how do I, I'm not connected to that culturally, right?
Sarah (07:11.569)
Mm.
Jay (07:25.47)
How do I foster that? So I've talked a lot. It's a very complicated thing when it comes to me and race and identity and culture and all these things and where I fit feels like I don't fit anywhere. But that journey for the last 10 plus years of reconciling my Filipino heritage with my white upbringing has been a really interesting one that's had lots of ups and downs and lots of instances where, you know,
Emotionally, you feel one way or the other way. But I'm glad I'm sharing this publicly, finally, because I don't think anyone's ever really heard this. And that's not to steal the show from you, Ara, but that was my, I wanted to make sure that came out so that we have a very clear conversation when it comes to race and scuba diving in general.
Sarah (08:16.465)
Wow, like that's kind of wild. No, it really is. Cause like we know that the sport, like the reason why we're talking about this is that the sport is very much like old white man, right? Like all of us can nod and say like that's who we typically see on dive boats. So I would love to hear from both of you, your experience about just...
Jay (08:17.95)
Yeah.
Sarah (08:45.681)
being in this world and like how has that affected you? Have you noticed a difference of you being treated differently? That kind of stuff.
Ara (08:54.958)
Okay, I just want to say with Jay's experience, mine was kind of reversed in the sense that when you sent me some questions earlier and then you said, person of color, and I was like, wait a minute, I'm a person of color, and it didn't dawn on me until you told me. Because I guess I'm always surrounded with other people of color, so to me, I'm like ordinary. I'm not like...
standing out from everyone else, if you know what I mean. So it's like reverse of what Jay is experiencing or it has experienced wherein I don't see myself as person of color because I'm in the Philippines so I don't see it as much. Does that make sense?
Sarah (09:28.049)
Mmm.
Sarah (09:37.361)
Yeah, totally. It's more of like a global majority, right? This is, that was a very like United States centric sort of perspective. Yeah, yeah.
Jay (09:39.486)
Yeah.
Ara (09:42.83)
Yeah.
Ara (09:49.614)
label. Yeah. So I.
Jay (09:54.782)
But you are, you probably do deal with a lot of tourism when it comes to diving. And I would imagine the majority of that would see you in a certain way versus they see themselves, right?
Ara (09:58.862)
Yeah, definitely.
Yeah. Yeah.
Exactly. Yep.
Jay (10:09.566)
What experiences have you had in that way, I guess, in dealing more with those that are coming to dive with you or coming to the Philippines to experience that, not from there?
Ara (10:22.35)
Surprisingly, my interactions with foreigners have been really good or positive. Like, I haven't had any alarming or negative interactions wherein I felt really discriminated because I'm Filipino. That is coming from foreigners who are visiting here. What I get discrimination from, surprisingly, are from fellow Filipinos.
Sarah (10:51.025)
Hmm.
Ara (10:52.014)
I know that sounds strange, but there's a certain stigma or stereotype that when I'm traveling within the Philippines, they kind of judge me or treat me differently because I'm Filipino. And it's because a lot of the dive shops get a lot of foreigners and not a lot of Filipinos. So that's where the discrimination comes in, in my opinion or in my experience.
So for instance, I'd be taking a group or like a friend. I'd invite a friend over to the Philippines and hey, go diving with me. And as soon as I step in a dive shop, they'll assume that they're the diver and not me. So that's where the discrimination comes in. Because they already have like in their head, they're thinking, foreigner, that's the diver. And it's never like, I'm like just a friend taking the diver and I'm not the diver. So that's where the...
Sarah (11:35.985)
Mmm.
Sarah (11:49.809)
right?
Ara (11:50.926)
discrimination comes in, it's when fellow Filipinos think that maybe I'm just the girlfriend of that person and I'm just, you know what I mean? That stereotype, that's what I've experienced when I'm diving with other foreigners.
Sarah (12:01.553)
Totally.
Jay (12:02.078)
Yeah.
Sarah (12:09.169)
Interesting.
Jay (12:09.182)
That's fascinating. That's so fascinating because. go ahead. No, go ahead, go ahead.
Ara (12:10.814)
And I think it's because it's also a reflection of what they're seeing or what they experience. Like all the people who go diving are foreigners. And it's rare, or like in a lot of these places, when they have guests or divers, majority of their guests will be foreigners. And it's rare to get the locals, or it's gonna be like a handful of people who...
Sarah (12:14.577)
I don't know you.
Sarah (12:25.201)
Mm -hmm.
Ara (12:40.046)
where locals will be diving in that destination.
Sarah (12:46.033)
Yeah, I saw that a lot in Indonesia as well when I had my business there. It was much more common to see people travel from Europe to dive in Komodo versus getting people from Jakarta, right? And part of it was, you know, our market, the three of us owners, we were all white. We spoke English and Spanish. You know, we had Indonesian...
Ara (12:50.414)
Yeah.
Sarah (13:15.505)
staff, but on a very functional level, we could not serve them properly because we didn't have local instructors. That was always our goal to get local instructors, but we just weren't open long enough to train people to get to that point. So that's really interesting that you say that when traveling in your own country.
Ara (13:40.398)
Yeah. And it's happened a few times, actually. So it's like, and I know other people, like other local divers who've had the same experience, where they were treated as if they're not divers, because the assumption is that the foreigners are the divers, and you're just like local visitor or local tourist. Like, I was talking to a friend a few weeks ago, and he said, yeah, I was in...
Puerto Galera, one of the popular dive destinations, and he was just sitting around. And the waitress or one of the servers in the restaurant, I guess it was like a dive shop with a restaurant or like a resort, was actually like hinting to him that it was a diverse resort and he shouldn't even be staying there or like sitting there or having a meal there. And he was so shocked because he said, I can't believe I'm being discriminated in my own country.
Jay (14:30.11)
Mm.
Sarah (14:37.905)
my god.
Ara (14:38.51)
because of the way the other Filipinos were treating him.
Sarah (14:43.601)
Right. That's wild.
Jay (14:45.566)
That's fascinating. Well, it's interesting because in a way you're describing what I would kind of think about as, as this stereotype that's reinforced from the other end, right? Because it is true. I mean, you know, if you look at the statistics of dive travelers, as far as what's been published, you know, most of them are, you know, earn above a hundred thousand dollars a year. You know, they're mostly.
Sarah (15:12.569)
I'm going to go to bed.
Jay (15:14.782)
college graduates, they're all homeowners for the most part, they're mostly male and they're mostly white. So that's the profile of a dive traveler. And it's interesting that that gets cemented. And like you said, Sarah and Ara, diving happens across the world. I mean, Southeast Asia is a hotbed for scuba diving, for sure. From Malaysia to Indonesia to the Philippines, I mean, Thailand all over.
And yet that stereotype is so embedded. It's kind of a systematic view of a diver equals a white male, not a beautiful Filipino woman, right? Or not a Filipino male or not, you know, because that's not diving. I find that fascinating, right? Because the inverse of that is when you have someone like me,
who doesn't fit that profile living in the States. How is that systemic racism here, right? If I don't fit that profile, or I wonder what would happen if I came to the Philippines, how they would see me? I don't know, right? So it's very, very interesting that you share that. I really appreciate you sharing that perspective.
Sarah (18:05.937)
Okay, going back to what you just talked about with like the numbers, the stats, I think it comes back to, you know, even from the very beginning of getting trained, you look at training materials and all you see are white guys. And like now there's women too, but it's still just very white. Like, I can't believe it. And I can't even imagine being someone who like you look at,
Ara (18:28.685)
Yes.
Sarah (18:35.857)
these materials and like marketing online, I mean, marketing online has gotten a little bit better. They're like, organizations are trying a little bit. But like the training materials are terrible. And if you looked at that, not being white, like, I can't even, you know, like that, that has to feel a certain way. And I hope that the organizations will pick up and make change.
You know, like, is that something that you guys have seen or felt?
Ara (19:08.046)
Yeah, definitely. I was gonna say like the marketing materials, the way they promote diving as a sport or an activity, it's always the same look or the same profile. I mean, I appreciate that they try to have like ambassadivers and like try to incorporate that. But I feel like they haven't really maximized that way of marketing the sport as a, you know.
like anybody can do it. It's still the same material, the same content that's being turned out on the internet. And that's what people are seeing. Like the internet is such a powerful tool to promote the sport. And yet it's always going to be the same faces or the same race that's promoting it.
Sarah (19:55.889)
Yeah. It's, and it doesn't, I don't know. It seems like in this day and age, 2024, it's like, and especially because a lot of these organizations do have the marketing budget. It's like, it's available, you know? And so when I see, marketing, like I've just recently seen some, I've seen some marketing, efforts and I'm like, really?
Ara (20:10.526)
Yeah.
Sarah (20:26.385)
Again, like how have we not decided to choose other people for this, you know? I don't know.
Ara (20:32.206)
Yeah.
Jay (20:37.795)
Yeah, I, it's so interesting because again, through my eyes, I, I don't, I'm still reconciling this right for, for myself. And, and so if I see a white person as an advertisement, I may, I probably see myself in them and I, and that's partially true. And I also think oftentimes, you know, this, this is not just unique to scuba diving, right? It's, it's,
you know, a lot of recreational sports, golf, skiing, wakeboarding, the one that I hate the most, which is, you know, skiing or no snowboarding. There it is. The one that I killed my knees on, you know, all of it kind of has that same vibe, adventure sports in general. And, and again, I think the, the, on one end advertising can be reflective of the statistics.
Sarah (21:21.584)
oof
Jay (21:36.995)
Right. That that's a marketer's job in some ways is to try and match what's happening out in the real world so that people can see themselves as the hero in that ad. On the other end, marketing, as we well know, in a lot of ways can be a cultural lead and not just marketing, but in how it's reflected in the materials. And that's the part that I find very fascinating is, you know, a lot of the global.
Agencies, the big box agencies very much so tout the idea of how many countries they're involved in something like, you know, the latest I saw was 186 plus countries and territories. We have a, a dive shop in. And so there, these global agencies are global in that sense. And the dive shop owners in a lot of these cases, the question I have is the dive shop owners and the operators within there.
the instructors, the dive masters, you know, the, the service technicians, sales reps are, are those local people, or is that more working tourism people coming from the States white or wherever white male traveling and becoming, you know, the Indonesian dive shop owner. And so I would imagine Sarah.
Sarah (22:58.097)
Ara (23:01.058)
Oops.
Sarah (23:04.785)
That was a kill shot. That was a kill shot.
Jay (23:04.835)
Not a statement. Don't worry. We have, we have episodes on, on gender coming up. I'm sure I'm going to step into some snakes. But, my point being, my point being is, is when you talk about the marketing and you talk about materials and you talk about representation in those areas, if you can't simply say we're just reflecting the, the statistics that are true of.
Sarah (23:15.825)
No, it's true.
Ara (23:17.262)
Yeah.
Jay (23:34.403)
community of divers because that neglects the idea that you're in 186 countries and territories that you have to be reflective of your own organization. And so in that way, I think absolutely there, there is a moment, I don't think for the token person of color to be included, but more for agencies, including my own agency, but.
Sarah (23:44.369)
Exactly.
Jay (24:04.023)
agencies and the industry in general to be more reflective mirror to what the diving community actually is out in the world. And I would say that that diving community is diverse. I would say that there are people like Aura around the world who are awesome divers, part of the industry, influencers in such an incredible way with diver bliss, Aura, but are not yet reflected back.
In the very organizations that they choose to be a part of. And so I think that's the miss. And I think that that's the thing that at least I see when, when you asked the question, Sarah, about materials and marketing and it is that it's not accurate or reflective of what's actually happening. It's more. I would say entrenching an existing or, or a past belief kind of what we've talked a lot about Sarah too, is how, how to entrench the diving industry is in.
in the past, not in what is today and what could be in the future. But yeah, that's my two cents. I'm probably going to take a lot of hate meal for that one.
Sarah (25:17.169)
So he's popped out. It's OK. He bumped his microphone again. But.
Ara (25:20.622)
Where did Jake go?
Ara (25:24.91)
Okay.
Sarah (25:30.865)
Okay, all right. He's got to stop moving around when he talks.
man. I don't think so. It's yeah. yeah, I don't think we're getting too, scandalous with this. It's, it's a pretty common, feeling. Are you back? Okay. it's, I know. Yeah. You really need to,
Ara (25:39.694)
So you guys had to hate me.
Ara (25:44.71)
I'm sorry.
Jay (25:59.616)
I'm back. Sorry. I need like a force field right here.
I need to fix that, sorry.
Sarah (26:08.913)
Yeah, so go for it.
Ara (26:09.102)
Since we're talking about marketing, I think at the end of the day, it's also because of the money factor. I think it boils down to that. They're gonna market to a predominantly white market because they have the money. They're the ones who can afford the diving. And I think that's where the inequality comes in. I'm a third -world income earner.
Sarah (26:16.817)
Yes.
Yeah.
Sarah (26:31.217)
Mm -hmm.
Ara (26:38.254)
And I can't afford a lot of these courses, a lot of these diving because I'm earning from a third world country. So income wise, there's going to be a huge discrepancy. And yet I'm, I'm paying for the same price or same rates as, let's say getting certified or, you know, getting a open water course. The booklets or the courses online is going to be priced the same regardless of where you get it, right?
Sarah (27:06.449)
Hmm.
Ara (27:06.734)
And I think that's kind of unfair for people. So that in itself kind of gate keeps diving for a lot of nations, a lot of individuals, because in the first place, they can't afford it.
Sarah (27:19.665)
Yeah. Yeah. No, it's very true. And especially in places like the Philippines, Indonesia, it's very much priced in a way that keeps locals out. That's one of the things that, you know, I did get a kill shot from Jay earlier, but like it was one of our goals as a dive shop, especially understanding that we were coming in as foreigners, that we wanted to have local...
dive masters and local instructors. And that was one of the things that was, we didn't get to finish it, but it comes with a good ending. One of our office guys, he would help us with preparing the boat and like moving equipment around, you know, riding the scooters around town, making sure all of the stuff was prepped. We got him through his open water course and his advanced. And then the pandemic hit and...
we had to hit pause on everything. But the people that we sold the business to, they kept on most of the staff. Like if they were still in the area, they hired them back. And he has gone through and like continued his certification levels and he's working for them now, like as a diver. And that's so cool to me. And I feel like a lot of...
dive shops need to take an initiative in that. I don't know, that's something that I'm passionate about because I understand that earning level. And I think all of us who have worked in the diving industry, especially, we understand that earning level. We don't make very much money. And so where are the opportunities within the dive industry itself, right?
Ara (29:16.142)
even just a regular person who wants to dive. Like it doesn't have to be in the professional level but just to be to to dive for instance it's one thousand on an average it's gonna be a thousand five hundred pesos to dive just to do a fun dive and that's what around thirty dollars and a minimum wage earner in the Philippines is like ten dollars so you have to be working like
Sarah (29:19.761)
Totally.
Sarah (29:23.505)
Fair.
Sarah (29:39.057)
Mm -hmm.
Ara (29:45.87)
bubble, triple, just to be able to afford one dive. And that's just a dive. It doesn't even count the other expenses that you have to incur to be able to enjoy the sport. Like even for me, like I was only able to get my certification because I was a scholar. I actually applied for a scholarship through Corel K Conservation 10 years ago because of a program they have for Filipino scholars.
Sarah (30:04.593)
Mmm.
Ara (30:14.158)
So they take in Filipinos and then they certify them. And that's the only reason why I started diving in the first place. Otherwise, it would have taken me longer for me to be able to afford or get to where I am. And I know a lot of Filipinos would be interested in diving. It's just that it's too expensive. And I think that's also why there's a growing community of freedivers in the Philippines because it's more affordable.
Sarah (30:40.145)
Mm -hmm.
Sarah (30:45.041)
Yeah, absolutely. And I love that you shared that organization because that's amazing that that was available for you.
Ara (30:51.022)
Yeah. Unfortunately, they've left. They've left the country. But I know a lot of people got certified through them. So that was very instrumental for a lot of like, maybe marine biologists or people who are, you know, wanting to learn to scuba dive and have a career in conservation. And they've been very helpful. So I was kind of sad that they had to go. But yeah. But...
Jay (30:53.536)
Yeah, I think that...
Sarah (30:55.697)
no!
Jay (31:00.64)
Hmm.
Ara (31:19.01)
Oftentimes, a lot of Filipinos will have to rely on scholarships. And that's kind of sad because we have the most beautiful reefs in the world, and yet we don't get to dive it. A lot of Filipinos don't have access to it.
Sarah (31:23.185)
Bye.
Sarah (31:31.153)
Right.
Jay (31:32.)
Mm -hmm.
Jay (31:35.424)
Yeah. How many islands do you know offhand the number 7 ,000 something? Yeah. I'm impressed. I'm impressed. I could come up with 7 ,000, but not the rest of it. So that's awesome. And I think, I think you're right. You know, that, that this is an important point is the, your backyard, Filipinos backyard, your, your national treasure when it comes to the water.
Ara (31:37.294)
7 ,641.
Sarah (31:41.329)
Ugh, beautiful. That's beautiful.
Jay (32:05.984)
is incredible. And yet the barrier to you and others enjoying that is the cost. And I would say some of the maybe just neglect of understanding the local market in that way. And so I think it's really important on two ends. One is to understand how diving becomes more localized, how it becomes something that, yeah, absolutely.
Filipinos that are interested, Indonesians that are interested, Malaysians that are interested, right? That want to see that for themselves have access to that in some way. And I think that that's something that the industry can look at. The other side of that that I wanted to point out is also for us individually that are possibly traveling from Europe or from the US is to be aware of the environment that you're entering into.
No, we did an episode last season on eco -tourism and the fifth point around eco -tourism. That's, that's kind of a globally accepted view of eco -tourism is, is awareness, for the culture and the traditions and the people that you are, are traveling to. And that's regardless of diving or any sort of travel that you're doing. And I think that's something that, you know, if you're listening to this and you go, well, whatever Jay, you know, like I, I.
What, how am I going to solve this? And that's how I often feel when I hear some of these global systemic issues. I think one of the things that you can take away from this, or one of the things I'm taking away from what you're sharing are is, you know, that, that I can be better informed and better aware when I am taking a dive trip and look for opportunities to engage in, in that culture, to engage in a way that, that provides possibly, you know, opportunity, but more importantly, understanding and empathy.
for those situations and that's how I think we can get better. So I really appreciate you sharing that and it's an interesting perspective that the very thing that people are traveling to see in the Philippines and enter whatever country you want to into that that is struggling, you know, from a financial or economy standpoint, the very people that live there that are a part of that culture don't have access to what we have access to when we travel. And I think that's a really important.
Jay (34:33.664)
point to make.
Sarah (34:36.657)
So I'd love to kind of dive into the other side of your business. You know, Diver Bliss, it's like such a prominent online community and it's so beautiful. Like the way that you've interacted with your community and created content. I would love to hear if...
race and things because we all know that the internet can be a giant dumpster fire of like horrible like the worst keyboard warriors like the worst things in the planet can come out on the internet. So I would love to hear your experience if there is any like hopefully there's not and you've had a lovely time on the internet but I'd love to hear about that.
Ara (35:08.718)
Yeah.
Jay (35:09.344)
Ha ha!
Ara (35:13.454)
Yeah.
Ara (35:30.094)
Personally, interactions with regards to race, I have had negative interactions in that sense. Like everybody's been very nice, polite. They've never like insulted me online because I'm Filipino. If anything, I think it has worked to my advantage that I'm Filipino because there aren't a lot of content creators in scuba diving that are Filipinos. And if they do post, it's going to be like,
Jay (35:31.36)
A lovely time on the internet.
Sarah (35:38.225)
I'm so glad.
Ara (36:01.07)
not consistent. So I'm very active online in that sense and people go to me or message me asking for help or advice on where to go and everyone's been lovely in that sense. So being Filipino or a Filipina diver has actually worked well for me in that sense.
Sarah (36:02.673)
Mm -hmm.
Sarah (36:24.177)
I am so glad to hear that.
Ara (36:25.614)
But with regards to other things, like, you know, there's gonna be all the rude comments about other things, about, you know, like how maybe I'm a bad diver or I'm doing things wrong. The usual things that you also get on your content. There's always gonna be those trolls and haters. But with regards to me being Filipina, there's not been a negative interaction online.
Sarah (36:50.129)
I'm really glad to hear that, like truly, because I have seen other people of different backgrounds receive some of that. And I hate to see it. Like I want to burn those profiles to the ground because I think it's just disgusting that you would say something like that.
Ara (36:59.502)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Ara (37:10.414)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Sarah (37:14.545)
So I'm just, I'm truly, truly pleased that you haven't had that experience. And yes, I understand the other side, like you always get negative, whatever from people, cause that's just what happens, especially at your level. I mean, what do you have like 20 ,000 followers now, right? Something like that.
Ara (37:18.702)
Me too.
Ara (37:23.168)
Yeah.
Ara (37:30.574)
mixed with Instagram and Facebook.
Sarah (37:33.105)
in Facebook. I mean, it's incredible. So of course, you're opening yourself up to opinions.
Ara (37:38.414)
Yeah.
Hahaha!
Jay (37:43.136)
Maybe I can add a two cents here too, because I think when it comes to not having a lovely time on the internet, I love that phrase. I want a shirt that says, I'm having a lovely time on the internet. I just think that's great. You know, the big thumbs up. Yeah. Or rainbows and unicorns, you know, with Xs in their eyes, but because whoever has a lovely time on the internet, right? But I think there's kind of the...
Ara (37:52.334)
I'm sorry.
Thank you.
Sarah (37:58.033)
like a big thumbs up.
Ara (38:00.206)
Thanks.
Ara (38:07.246)
You
Jay (38:12.16)
the category of blatant racism or blatant attacks that Sarah, I think, you know, you're addressing in some ways for sure that can happen on the internet or on a dive boat or at a dive site or in a dive shop, all that. There's this other category that I think exists, and I will speak for myself, at least this is where I see it show up a lot more, is this kind of category that Harvard came out with an article years ago,
Sarah (38:24.977)
Right.
Jay (38:41.472)
finding as casual racism. And the way that they talk about that is it's kind of the jokes, the statements, the small interactions, things that are, are kind of normalized, kind of, you know, commonplace that have this racial under undertone to them or, or, or racial root to the way that they're said. you know, think,
Sarah (38:43.697)
Mm -hmm.
Jay (39:07.872)
You know, yeah, you know, there's an Asian driving a car in the States, something I get all the time. Right. And, you know, that, that's a kind of a commonplace funny stereotype thing that, that really, I don't think is meant as harmful when it said. But can, can do damage and, and can reinforce those stereotypes. I'll give an example from diving. I mean, you know, this is terrible, but for all, all you dry suit divers out there.
Sarah (39:13.425)
God.
Jay (39:37.376)
if you're a male dry suit diver and you need to use the restroom in the middle of a, of a dive you wear, you have a P valve in your suit. And in order to make that work, you wear what's called a condom catheter. So it's a condom catheter. And I have a funny story about learning all about those, but I'll tell a bunch later, but the joke that's funny for a lot of my. Dive buddies are at a dive site or a dive boat when those things start to come out, because everyone knows what you're doing.
is, you know, you need the extra small, you know what they say about those Asians. And it's meant in good jest. It's not meant as like, I hate you, get off of my boat. You know, like, I can't stand you. It's meant as, I think, a way to poke fun at me and build maybe a rapport. But it's casual racism. And I was completely unaware of it before, and now I'm aware of it.
Sarah (40:32.305)
Yeah.
Ara (40:32.43)
Yeah. Yeah.
Jay (40:35.84)
And the question I have, you know, and I still haven't figured this out. how do you respond? And I just kind of at this point, laugh it off. Those kinds of comments, you know, like, where are you originally from? you know, you have some rice with that. You know, these sorts of just casual joking, just statements. I just, at this point, the only thing I really can do is like laugh it off.
I found myself before being defensive of like trying to go, you know, well, you're German, so you know what they say about those bratwursts. And then I realized I'm just doing the same thing back because I, you know, I don't know what to do. So I think that's another issue and it comes across in different ways, but I'm curious, R, you know, for you, not just on the internet, but certainly it can exist there because I'm having a lovely time on the internet. But, you know, at the dive sites and things like that, that those kinds of.
Sarah (41:03.217)
Hmm.
Ara (41:12.334)
Yeah.
Jay (41:31.36)
comments and things coming out, you know, how do you respond to them or have you had experience having to respond to those things?
Ara (41:38.062)
I think what I do get sometimes is like, because I do like engagement posts on Facebook and I do get weird comments on Facebook about race. Sometimes they'll leave a comment like, I don't want to be diving with Chinese divers. So yeah, because of a certain stereotype, because of how supposedly bad they are in diving. So sometimes I'll call them out.
Sarah (41:59.601)
Stop.
Ara (42:08.718)
and say, hey, that's not cool. Like you shouldn't be, you know, talking like that. So I'll call them out publicly when they do say stuff like that. And I'll just leave it there for people to see that, you know, that's how you behave online. And that's just not cool. So I think calling them out. Personally, I've also had the same comment.
Sarah (42:25.777)
Yeah.
Ara (42:35.406)
like person to person. So I just like, not like you try to correct them and say, not everyone's like that, you know, every race probably has their own set of bad divers and it's not based on race. So you just call them out, I guess. And I know I've been guilty of the same stereotype and, you know, profiling when it comes to divers and diving and you just have to be more conscious and aware.
Jay (42:47.52)
Mm -hmm.
Sarah (42:50.385)
Yeah.
Ara (43:05.422)
of these comments that you end up saying or hearing from the community.
Jay (43:14.624)
You say something really, really important there, which it reminds me back in a day, so I don't know if you remember this, but there was a Broadway play that came out called Avenue Q. and it was a parody on Sesame Street, which is if you don't know Sesame Street, it's, you know, Big Bird and Ernie and Bert and all that, but it was a whole parody. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. No, not you are. I'm just saying for the listeners out there, if you don't know what Sesame Street is, not you are.
Sarah (43:31.282)
Bye.
Ara (43:34.063)
I know that's a mystery. Okay. We get them here in the Philippines. I've watched this.
Sarah (43:36.041)
Hahaha!
Yeah.
Jay (43:43.136)
See there I was casual racism, RR red it as and I was not meaning it that way. Yeah. All right. All right. Took her shot. I took my shot at Sarah. I think all that's left to Sarah to take a shot at one of us. So.
Sarah (43:57.517)
that's not happening. I'm not playing that game.
Jay (44:02.56)
But, so Avenue Q came out and it was, like I said, a parody on Sesame Street that dealt with a lot of very sensitive cultural issues, at least in the States. and you know, with puppets, which is why it was brilliant in a lot of ways. It was puppets dealing with these really culturally sensitive topics. And they had a song in there and maybe we'll post it up on the, I don't know how, how this is going to go, but the song was entitled, everybody's a little bit racist.
I'm a little racist too.
Sarah (44:33.393)
I remember that, yeah.
Jay (44:35.168)
That was kind of the lyric. And, and I think that what they were, at least for me, what that addressed was that, that the absence of racism is not being colorblind, is not being, you know, a, no, everyone's the same and I'm just not going to acknowledge. That's not the absence of racism. The, the absence of racism is the use of that. The, the.
Sarah (44:46.801)
Right.
Jay (45:02.08)
the casual racism, systemic racism, cultural racism that comes out, either being weaponized and used systemically or culturally or in some way against someone because of their race, or being completely unaware, like you say, that I am reinforcing a stereotype or that I'm being racially insensitive. And I think that that's maybe the awareness piece because absolutely we should celebrate our differences.
We should see those differences. We should acknowledge each other's cultures and each other's backgrounds. But we should do that in a way that we're aware of how a comment like, you know what they say about Asians when it comes to condom catheters is you're aware that that's culturally insensitive, that that is casual racism and that's coming across that way versus, hey, tell me about you, where you're from. I'm genuinely interested because you don't look like me. I get that all the time.
It's actually my favorite game to play internationally is where, where is Jay from? Cause no one can guess. which is a lot of fun. Yeah. See? Yeah. It's well, I got to take off my hat and then you, and you'd get it. Cause, you know, it's funny. Most everybody in the world thinks I'm from where they're from. You know, I've gotten German, Japanese, I've gotten Dutch, which was a total what, I've gotten Malaysian everything else. The, the ones that know are the.
Ara (46:06.894)
Yeah, I wouldn't have guessed that you're Filipino, actually.
Sarah (46:10.121)
I'm sorry.
Ara (46:13.166)
You
Jay (46:31.776)
the Filipino grandmothers. They're like, you're Filipino. Like, yeah, every time. It's not even like, where are you from? What do you mean? There's like, yep, yeah, I know where you're from. Every time. Yeah. Every time. Every time.
Sarah (46:33.457)
of course.
Sarah (46:41.553)
The grandmas always know. The grandmas always know. Like hands down. I would like to say something just on that bit that you started to talk about and this might upset some people, right? But we're talking about the systemic part of things. And that's, you know, we saw a lot of this, at least in the United States in 2020 with Black Lives Matter, right? Obviously that was a, that's a movement that's been around for a long time because we've had a.
of issues with racism in the United States. And that whole colorblind thing is something that drives me crazy because people that look like me are all like, well, don't all lives matter? And it's like, people miss the point with that conversation. The reason why they say Black lives matter is because they haven't mattered in the past. They haven't been a part, like they haven't been treated.
on the level of people that look like me. And that's why we center them. We say Black Lives Matter because there are still so many people in this country specifically that don't think that they do and that are treated like people treat them very, very differently. They're targeted by police. The police brutality is through the stratosphere with that community. And...
It's something that obviously we don't see so much because we're doing a recreational sport, right? But at the same time, do we see any black people in our materials, right? Do we see, like, we're not seeing them so much. I'm starting to see them on social media and it's making me so happy, like so, so happy. And I think that's where, like, as...
a white person, you know, you talk about like, how do you respond? How I respond as an ally, I hope that I act as an ally in this conversation, but I don't laugh. I don't laugh at that stuff because the second that I give that person who's making a racially insensitive joke, the satisfaction of getting like sought out.
Sarah (49:04.689)
reaction, right? They're hoping to get laughter. And so if they get laughter from me, then that's encouraging them that this is okay. Right? So whether or not I like I may not say something in the moment of like, hey, that's not okay. Like if I don't want to call them out in front of a group, like maybe I'll step aside with them and have a conversation with them later. But I will not laugh. And I will make it clear that like, not funny. Right?
Ara (49:32.726)
Yeah.
Sarah (49:33.777)
And I think that's something that people that look like me, other white people, we can be better allies in that sense and not continue this use of stereotypes and things. I mean, yes, like you said with the Avenue Q, like, what was it? Or everyone's a little racist, I'm a little racist too. Like it's something that is,
Jay (49:54.784)
Everyone's a little racist. I'm a little racist too.
Sarah (50:02.961)
there, right? It's in the room with us, right? But it's how I want to respond in that way and how I want to encourage an environment where that's not like the norm.
Ara (50:05.966)
Okay.
Jay (50:19.648)
Well said, well said. Yeah, you probably, you know, in.
Sarah (50:20.529)
I don't know.
Jay (50:25.728)
To reinforce what you're saying, Sarah, I think that that, again, to localize this down to the person, because it's overwhelming sometimes when you think about the systemic nature of some of these things. And you trace back all the way to slavery and emancipation and the loophole that existed out of the Emancipation Proclamation was, unless someone was a criminal,
If they were convicted criminal, then they could still be enslaved. And it's fascinating to look at that history and say, well, then that's when you start to see the black criminal, because it was a way to hanging on to that labor and how that's carried through all the way to today. And again, I cannot speak on that with authority in the sense that my own journey has been.
so convoluted and I still haven't made sense of it in a way. But I think to localize things from a systemic level down to a personal level is one, I think, to inform yourself. Like you talk about Sarah, what does it mean, Black Lives Matter, not just the response of all lives matter? of course, like that's such a cheeky, to me, uneducated response. We can educate ourselves.
Sarah (51:49.157)
Mm -hmm.
Jay (51:52.192)
If I'm going to travel to see you are, I'm going to educate myself. I want to educate myself on what's happening in your world. And I'm going to ask you to educate me. How can I be better, better aware of what's happening? I mean, taking trips down to Mexico, that was one of the first questions that I asked. And I learned a lot about, for example, the train Maya, Maya train. I can never remember which word comes first, but you know, the train that was going to go over the.
I know Sarah's laughing at me being culturally insensitive to language here, but.
Sarah (52:23.153)
No, you got it. It's just, you know, Spanish versus English. So, yeah.
Jay (52:26.656)
I know it's always messes with my brain, but the, I learned about that and how it's not just about diving and it's about the cultural roots of the, of the Mayan people that have been there for centuries and centuries. You can be informed as a, as a traveler, you can be informed about people that are coming to die with you that don't look like you that are part of your dive club or part of your dive meetup on Tuesday nights or whatever it would be. And then I think the other side to localize this a little bit more.
Is a Sarah said is, is to be an ally. And sometimes that's a quiet ally. Like you said, Sarah, I'm not going to laugh. I'm going to make sure that, that I'm not reinforcing that. And I also think the other side of it is, is maybe in a quiet moment to acknowledge. I saw what happened. You know, and I'm or, or whatever that's always, we're going to get into this with gender and, and, sexism and everything else later, Sarah, because, you know, these are the things that I think about, but.
Sarah (53:20.017)
Yeah.
Jay (53:24.512)
I think localizing those things down is how we as an industry and as a community of divers worldwide can really make an impact and evolve forward. And I would even argue, you know, potentially be a leader for adventure sports worldwide. Because at the end of the day, under the water, we all speak the same language. Under the water.
We all are the same human beings, right? I mean, you're behind a mask and, you know, maybe a wetsuit or a dry suit and a tank and, you know, we're all, you know, water doesn't, is the great equalizer. And the stuff that happens before that is the systemic and blatant casual racism that either prevents people from being under that water or makes people feel uncomfortable for being a part of that.
And that's an area that I think we can definitely do personally to maybe make some sense of this conversation in some ways. I don't know, what do you think, R, is that, am I far reaching here or what's your experience there?
Ara (54:35.118)
Well, to localize it, I think, because we're a very, as you know, our history is filled with colonizers. And I think systemically, that's also why it is how we are profiled or stereotyped in our own country. It's because we're like sometimes treated as second class citizens, or, you know, treated poorly, and that foreigners are better than us. And it's ingrained in our culture. And
Sarah (54:43.089)
Mm -hmm.
Ara (55:05.23)
Unfortunately, you still see that in diving and how a lot of foreigners run shops and they don't treat the locals or their staff well. I've heard stories wherein a dive master was the owner said to the dive master that he was earning too much for a Filipino. And
I was like, what? And it's like, you're doing business in our country, you're running a shop and that's how you treat the locals? That's kinda horrible, you know? And people will just like not do anything. What can I do? They're the ones feeding me, they're the ones giving me money for me to survive and to live and to provide for my family. I can't report it to anyone. What will...
Sarah (55:42.609)
Yeah.
Ara (56:04.686)
And at the end of the day, Filipinos will just take it and not do anything and accept that kind of treatment because what choice do they have? So it's like, I think it's very important that you also, like when you go to a place, find out how they treat their employees, how they treat their staff. Like, do they employ well, pay well?
Sarah (56:26.129)
Mm.
Yeah.
Ara (56:34.702)
and give benefits to these people and if they don't maybe you shouldn't be supporting these businesses.
Jay (56:38.016)
Mm -hmm.
Sarah (56:42.193)
Yeah. That is such a good point. my gosh. Like, I can only imagine how predatory the relationship can be in that situation.
Jay (56:42.556)
Yeah, and that's
Ara (56:51.534)
Yeah. Yeah.
Jay (56:54.496)
Yeah. And I would say that that's true of period. You're talking about live aborts. You're talking about where you go get training. I'm talking about dive boat operations. You're talking about all of the, and I think that would even go farther when you were talking about, or, you know, the, the dive shop slash restaurant slash bar, right? Slash hostel slash, you know, everything else that's that, that certainly happens. at least I've seen that.
Ara (57:00.558)
Yeah.
Jay (57:23.488)
You know, how, how they treat their employees. And sometimes that's a little hard to figure out before you're on a trip. But if you see it and you're aware of it, going back or not saying something I think is just as bad. So, I think it's a really important thing that, that where we choose, if you're a tourist out there and you're planning dive travels, to these destinations, how you spend your.
Ara (57:29.87)
Yeah, definitely.
Jay (57:53.344)
money has something to say about this entire topic and being more, again, mindful and aware of those decisions, I think can have a huge impact. And I would even say that this maybe extends beyond just how we spend our money when traveling, but what gear we buy, right? Where is that manufactured? There's been a huge movement around the textiles industry.
in the sourcing of where things are manufactured, the Philippines being one of the big manufacturers and having fair trade. How is that happening in the way that I buy a wing or a BCD or a regulator? How are those equipment companies that are now a lot of them owned by multi conglomerate investment groups, what are their practices? Can I ask? Can I understand?
And I think that again, when you talk about how we spend our time and how we spend our resources and doing that in a mindful way, doing that in an informed way, I think has a lot to say about where this industry goes. So I appreciate you sharing that a lot because I think it's a good personalized localized view of this issue.
Sarah (59:17.425)
Yeah, I would say it's also a good piece of advice for people listening and for people traveling that if you see things happening that are not okay, right? You see locals not being treated well at the dive shop, like speaking up and talking to the operator if that doesn't go well, you know, social...
Social clout is a thing, like leaving a review and not being, you know, being very clear about it. Like maybe I had a great time diving with them, but I saw them treating the locals really poorly. So I don't recommend, you know, I don't recommend booking with these people. I think that is a really good way to start to weed out some of the people that aren't doing business well.
Sarah (01:00:16.465)
So yeah.
Jay (01:00:16.768)
Well, good. Well, I have to say, I really want to come out and dive together at some point. And I'm so impressed with Diver Bliss and I wish you just the best with all the trips that you're hopefully I can bring a crew or at least myself and or we do a dive table crew out there and spend time with you because I've never been to the Philippines and yet my grandmother was from Luzon. So.
Ara (01:00:26.03)
Yeah, I should.
Ara (01:00:38.126)
Yeah.
Ara (01:00:44.014)
I know. Yeah, you should.
Jay (01:00:46.56)
craziness, but we do, we got to change it. It has to happen. But I just want to say, you know, from, from the bottom of my heart, and I, and I, maybe Sarah, I'll speak, for us as the dive table and not just for, for me is we just really appreciate you, coming on the show, sharing your insights, and, and having a open dialogue about this. And I think that openness and,
Sarah (01:00:47.697)
We gotta change that. You gotta get out there.
Jay (01:01:15.04)
and willingness to tell your story is admirable. And if you're listening out there, I really encourage you to go to diverbliss .com and check out all of Aura's amazing content. But more than that, send her a message and say, hello, introduce yourself, have a conversation. Even if you never intend to dive with her.
Ara (01:01:36.238)
Yes, say hello.
Jay (01:01:41.984)
Say hello, that connection matters. And so, I just wanna say thanks. You should, you should, yes, absolutely.
Sarah (01:01:44.401)
But you should, yeah, you should, you should go diving. No, but I, yeah, I'd love, I'd love to give you the floor to promote anything that you have going on, your trips, like just put it all out there, let people know besides your website that Jay's already mentioned, like plug yourself, go.
Ara (01:01:45.902)
Yeah, you should. Come join me in the Philippines. Go diving with me.
Ara (01:02:02.926)
Yeah, so do follow me at Diver Bliss. That's on Instagram, Facebook. My website is diverbliss .com. You can find the list of my trips there or you can message me anytime. If you have questions about diving in the Philippines, I'd be happy to answer or help you out, plan your trip. Or you can join one of my trips. I've got several trips this year. I have around, I think, four lined up in July, August, September, and November. So do...
Sarah (01:02:27.473)
Yeah!
Jay (01:02:31.648)
That's right.
Sarah (01:02:32.657)
That's amazing.
Ara (01:02:33.07)
Say hello and let's talk about diving.
Sarah (01:02:37.233)
Thank you so much. It was great talking to you.
Ara (01:02:39.022)
Thank you.
Jay (01:02:40.928)
Great talking to you and like I said, consider us allies and fans and hopefully I'll get out there. Gosh, the one in, how do you pronounce Serengani? Is that correct? Serengani Bay. Wow, in September, that looks pretty amazing. I'm tempted, I don't know. I know, that's part of it. Yeah, it looks pretty amazing to me. So.
Ara (01:02:53.262)
Sarangani, yes. Yeah. And not a lot of people go there. Not a lot of people have dived there. Yep. I try to focus on like places where not a lot of people go. So, yeah.
Sarah (01:03:10.737)
Very smart. Nice. Awesome. Well, thank you. And we'll be back with another episode of the Dive Table.
Ara (01:03:15.79)
Thank you so much.
