Jay (00:02.243)
Welcome to the dive table. I'm Jay Gardner.
Sarah (00:05.04)
And I'm Sarah Miller, and today we're going to talk about how to choose a dive operator or a dive instructor. And I have a few things to say about that since I've owned a business and I'm an instructor. But what do you think? What's your initial impression on that? Do you think people really give this much thought?
Jay (00:28.419)
I don't know. I was prepping for this episode and I just didn't come up with a lot. And this is coming from someone who partially owns an agency, right? I mean, I have the reasons why I think you should choose us, but I don't know. I just didn't have a lot. So I'm interested in the conversation for sure.
Sarah (00:47.28)
Well, let's get into it.
Sarah (00:53.168)
so I really, I think about this a lot when I'm looking around and planning my trips because I have a certain like criteria, right? And the, like having that criteria, it means that I try to live up to that as well. And so for those of you that don't know, I, I'm sure some of you do, but I, I owned a dive shop in Indonesia. And with that dive shop, we really aim to be part of the.
like eco conservation hub of Labuan Bajo in Komodo. And so that's one that I think is like at the top. And I hope that as we get into things, like people are traveling again and people are learning more, I hope that that's like at the top of their criteria.
It's something that I'm really passionate about and we can talk about how to look out for those that are involved.
Jay (02:03.907)
Yeah, I think when you talk about ecotourism and you talk about being, I was trying to say ecologically environmentally minded. I couldn't, I got stuck in.
Sarah (02:07.504)
Ha ha.
Sarah (02:28.11)
What is happening?
Jay (02:32.449)
Ecology not in environment. So here we go. all right, then I'll start the over. Yeah, I think Sarah, you, you have, you make a really good point around ecotourism and the idea that we are all diving, most of us at least in the natural environment, right? unless you're in a pool or an aquarium and that means taking.
Sarah (02:55.216)
or like a mine shaft or something.
Jay (02:57.571)
or even a mineshaft, right? In some ways is, you know, how are we taking care of that environment? And so, you know, I think that that's an important consideration to make, but I realized as we were talking, as you were talking, why I probably don't have a lot to say about this, which couldn't come up with a lot to say. It goes back to how I dive or how I plan dive trips. I tend to be a, what do they call it? A tailgate or a,
Suit tails diver. I usually figure out how other people are going and say, Hey, can I join? What are you guys doing? yeah, I'll go. Let's go on that trip. That sounds cool. And so, I ended up getting invited a lot to other people's trips and say yes to that. And they've done all the legwork on all the things that we're about to talk about versus me. I know. I know.
Sarah (03:33.136)
okay.
Sarah (03:37.272)
Gotcha.
Sarah (03:47.088)
Hmm. I hate people like you. I say that with a lot of love, a lot of love. No, I, and I understand if that, if that's an option, like great. It takes a lot of work to research things. So I'll, I'll just go through a couple of tiers of this. So like as an owner, something that we were figuring out was like, how can we show that we are dedicated to this? Right? So like,
We were involved with youth programs and like we'd go and I remember early on there was a sea turtle educational program that one of my business partners went and like gave and it was such a cool thing for him to do. And then there were like sort of not quite like certifying organizations. They like, I guess they're sort of certifying organizations like Greenfinns.
I don't know if you've heard of Greenfin's, but they go through and they have a requirement, a list of requirements that you need to meet. And then they actually come out and they check on your operation. They make sure that you're not just filling out paperwork and not doing the things. And they will give you a sort of grade and they'll say, these are the things that we saw that aren't so great and this is how you can fix them. It's a cool organization in that way.
Jay (04:47.587)
Yeah.
Sarah (05:13.52)
of getting people on the same page and trying to do the best that they can for the environment because in the big scheme of things, like us taking boats out to some of these places, it's not an eco -friendly thing, right? A lot of us fly to get to these places and then we take these boats out to these gorgeous remote areas and that's exposing them. We saw it in...
in the pandemic how reefs were starting to recover because we weren't going out to see them, right? So we have to do, if we're gonna participate in this, there's a lot of things that we can do to try and limit the impact that we have on the environment. So when you're looking for an operator seeing like if they have those certifications, right? Like are they,
collaborating with groups like that? Are they supporting nonprofit organizations? Is there something going on in the local community, like coral reef regeneration, or are they participating in things like reef check where they're surveying the reefs and keeping track and collecting data of how the reefs are changing over the years? Are they participating in those things? And are they publishing those? Are they?
donating to those organizations because you want to see receipts because there's a thing called blue washing, right? Like you've heard of green washing, I'm sure. Blue washing is the same idea, but just with ocean stuff. And the issue with ocean related activities is that there's such a wider range for people to lie, honestly. Like,
Jay (07:08.451)
Yeah, yeah.
Sarah (07:09.264)
It's much, much easier to lie when you're doing your operations at seas, right? Like how many times have you heard of cruise ships or fishing boats, cruise ships dumping trash in places that they're not supposed to, doing fishing in places that are supposedly protected, that kind of stuff. It's a lot easier to get away with stuff when you're at sea.
Jay (07:35.651)
Yeah. Yeah. And there's, I think you said there's a lot of potential window dressing to look out for. That's the, the green washing portion of things. yeah. We're eco -friendly. We only use reef friendly sunscreens. If that's all they have to say, maybe not, right? Maybe that's the green washing portion. So it is hard though, I think for, for you to sort through those things without being well -educated prior to.
jumping on that boat or diving with that operation.
Sarah (08:08.464)
Yeah, I what I find so like then moving the perspective to like myself as an individual looking to book something somewhere. I will look at their website because that's, you know, the first lane of things. But then I'll also look into their social media profiles. You know, are they collaborating with nonprofit organizations? Are they promoting the local community and things that are going on there? Are they integrated? Right. Like,
There's, we've discussed in an episode, I don't know how the lineup is gonna go with how these release, but you know, of foreigners going into places like myself, going into Indonesia and opening a dive shop, it's giving colonizer vibes, right? Like it's not great.
And so when you see people that have been foreigners and going into these places, like, are they uplifting the local voices and supporting the local community, giving back to the local community?
Jay (09:13.859)
Yep. Yeah, you know, one way that you can educate yourself on this, at least I have had to educate myself a little bit more on it. One resource I really liked was actually the United Nations Tourism. It's the United Nations Tourism Board. They have a lot to say about ecotourism and protected areas. And they actually have five characteristics of what they would call ecotourism.
And so you can go on their website and read through those characteristics. Actually, Greg and I did an episode in season two where we covered those five and we talked about that in some ways. But generally speaking, you know, to sum it up is a lot of what Sarah's saying. One, it's the motivation of the activity is to observe the nature and the traditional cultures that prevail in that area.
And that was the thing that was surprising to me in the definition of ecotourism. It wasn't just about the environment and, and how the environment is being treated by that operator. But it's also, like you say about the integration into the local culture, into the community that exists there. Both of those things go hand in hand in the way that the UN defines ecotourism and a protected area. So again, educating yourself is, is probably the first step.
in choosing a dive operator about what you're even looking for, what are those criteria? And then the second step that Sarah's describing is then doing the research and putting in the work to understand if they fit that criteria for you.
Sarah (10:48.816)
Yeah, I think it's good that you pointed out that you didn't think about that local community aspect because I think that's how a lot of people sort of view tourism, you know, general tourism, maybe not what a lot of our listeners are like, right? But I think the majority of people that like travel and vacation, you know, they go to the all inclusive resorts and they get the packages of like,
in the dive and stay packages or whatever, and it's not integrated at all, right? Like maybe they're hiring locals, and so that can be great for the community so that they have jobs and stuff, but like, you know, and I think that's something that we're finally becoming aware of, that like integrating with the local people.
And here in the United States with indigenous people, they know how to interact with the environment. It's those of us that have come from other places that have messed up the, we've created an imbalance. And so getting back to those roots is how we can try to fix things.
Jay (12:09.155)
Yeah, that's a good point.
Sarah (12:10.96)
So, yeah, so when I go through my options and I look at their social media, I see like, okay, whatever, like there's some stuff. What I like to do is to then get onto TripAdvisor or contact people that I know that have experience in that area. I'm like, what's the deal with this dive shop? And granted, like not everybody's gonna have a network of people that have.
you know, or all over the world or whatever, but TripAdvisor is word of mouth, right? And so you can look for things like the dive operator treats their staff well, right? Or, you know, they took extra care to make sure that everybody was acting appropriately, whatever you want to look for, right? And in the feedback, but seeing sort of the reviews and understanding how they do their business is...
going to be really key.
Jay (13:15.139)
Yeah, I think that's true. And I think that's maybe where I end up stepping in is that word of mouth portion is, yeah, I want to know what was your experience? What did you think? Why? And did they serve your needs well or not from divers that are like me?
Sarah (13:21.264)
Mm -hmm.
Jay (13:33.347)
And sometimes you get, you know, yeah, well, shining example, they were amazing, but all those sorts of things. And sometimes you'll get surprising, like, man, I wouldn't do it. And here's why. And sometimes you're going to get a full earload of drama that I try to avoid in general, but, that was on my list of the prep here was, you know, try not to get involved in the drama. There's drama like all human beings.
Sarah (13:44.686)
Mm -hmm.
Sarah (13:58.544)
There's always, my gosh, there's so much drama. So much. Yeah.
Jay (14:02.467)
this dive shop versus that dive operator versus that dive instructor versus, you know, it's not, sometimes that gets put onto the diver coming out to do the trip as to, you know, whether or not you can step inside of that dive shop, cause you're staying over in this dive shop and you're working with that dive instructor. Look, if drama is your thing, diving, you're going to love it in that sense. But if it's not like for me,
I just try to stay out of it. I try not to have an opinion. I try to stay neutral. I've had a lot of things said to me, even recently about different operators and this, that, and the other thing, people quitting and, and calling me up and things like that. And I just try to say, Hey, look, I'm a fan of diving and I'm a fan of yours. I hope we can maintain a great relationship. But you know, I, I draw the line and saying, that's so bad that that person did that to you or yeah, I'll never.
go to that shop ever again because of that. There might be instances where that's true, but that's just putting yourself in the position of adding to the drama. So anyway, that was a whole nother one on my list, but trying to get a sense of, from word of mouth, those folks and what they do and what they really are, and giving yourself some leeway if you're making a first time decision, I think, Sari, you might agree with this, as to maybe...
making the best informed choice you can based on TripAdvisor, based on word of mouth, based on your standards and giving yourself some grace that you might've got it wrong. And you'll have to fix it the next time around, right?
Sarah (15:39.436)
for sure. my gosh. I've gotten onto trips and I realized, this was not what, this is not what I want to be participating in at all. And okay, this is noted, right? Like, and I will say that I am, although I don't want to be in drama, right?
Jay (16:04.639)
come on. You just said on the last, on another podcast, you super close to drama with rescue, right? That's why you love it.
Sarah (16:10.832)
Okay, that's different though. That is like theater, okay? Yeah, that is theater. That is not like he said, she said kind of stuff. But I have been in the middle of that and I am going to be an advocate for people that are not treated well in this industry. That's just point.
Jay (16:15.755)
Theatrical, yes.
Sarah (16:39.952)
blank, like that is going to be it. Because I have seen so much corrupt, like douchebaggery in this industry that like I just can't, I can't stand for it. I can't stand for it. When people are getting taken advantage of, I like, I, mm, nope, nope, not here for it. I will talk about it.
Jay (17:03.265)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, and I think that that's a difference between word of mouth and drama. Drama is kind of the he said, she said thing. What you're really describing as well is, is a fact. This is how this person was treated. It's not an opinion about how that person was treated. And I think that that's okay. I mean, I've been through the same thing in planning dive trips where somebody,
Sarah (17:23.984)
Right.
Sarah (17:32.816)
You said you don't plan dive trips. What are you talking about?
Jay (17:35.615)
Well, there's, of course I do, but not, I would much rather just raft off somebody else's plans. But like, we're, you know, just to be frank right now, I'm going through a little bit of this and it's, you know, having somebody who I really respect and has treated me with nothing but respect. There's some drama going on and you know, you can't believe flat out.
one side or the other side of this stuff. And so how do you make a decision? Right? How do you, how do you stay neutral? And, and I think the wrong thing to do is to say either like, you know, I'm not going to do anything. I'm going to go, I'm not diving ever any more. You can get to that, to that place. I'm not going to dive there anymore. Or you can get to the other side. We're like, well, I don't care. I'd go there for the diving. And I've heard that I just go there for the diving. Yeah, you do.
Sarah (18:04.666)
it's always in the middle. It's always in the middle, right?
Jay (18:32.867)
But your money, your energy, your effort, all of that has a vote into whether that continues or not.
Sarah (18:35.6)
That's what I've... Yeah.
Sarah (18:41.328)
That's the biggest thing that I hope that people will take away from this is that when you're when you figure out what your priorities are, right, like maybe yours aren't the environment, which I've I hope they are. But, you know, maybe they're not. And you're interested in something else like you are voting with your dollars. You are saying like the way that this operator runs is acceptable and it's good. And I want them to stay in business versus somebody who's doing something differently.
Right. And that's as consumers. That's really the it sounds depressing. But in this late stage capitalism world that we live in, like our money is the the highest denominator. Right. It's the it's the most important thing. And that's how we can, you know, shift markets.
Jay (19:32.771)
Yeah. Yeah.
Sarah (19:34.032)
So yeah, I...
Yeah, I really believe that. So when, so like right now I'm planning my trip, like I'm literally leaving as we record this, I'm leaving in four days. I'm going to Indonesia for the first time since I left. So this is like a really big deal and I'm planning on a lot of shooting a lot of content while I'm over there. And one of my primary goals is to share about some of the conf -
Jay (19:42.369)
Yeah.
Sarah (20:09.616)
conservation efforts that are going on there. And so that's, it's just part of like the weeding out, right, like getting a list of what's available to do in an area and weeding out the people that don't do the things that I prioritize for myself, right. And something to call out like the green washing or blue washing or whatever.
Usually it's kind of easy to tell if they have a focus just by asking like some simple questions. You know, ask them what their conservation efforts are, like what kinds of protocols they have on the boat. And if they don't have an answer for that, or it's like real unclear in their response or just like real basic, it's that that gives you all the information you need, you know.
Jay (21:06.307)
Right, right. You should talk to Jim. He's our eco guy. That's not a response you want, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've got that one before. you know what? I don't know, but talk to Jim. He's the guy that runs our eco program here. Wait, and Jim's not communicating to you guys what should be happening, which means it's not happening, right, in some ways. And I think...
Sarah (21:10.256)
yeah, for... yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
Sarah (21:21.104)
Yeah.
Sarah (21:25.776)
Yeah, exactly. It needs to be like a full company kind of thing, right? And that's, I think that's what is missing in a lot of places. And that's why, you know, I have organized trips, right? I'm taking people to dive in Komodo. We're going to Baja, Socorro. My Baja trip is with Dive Ninja Expeditions and they are actually like at the top. I mean, Patty is going to use them as an example for how to run like eco programs.
in Mexico and I think actually like an example worldwide. So they're doing a lot to be part of the answer, right? And then my trip to Socorro is actually in direct collaboration with the nonprofit Finns Attached. And they were, we're gonna like go and learn about shark tagging and like research. It's gonna be so cool. And that's what I want to see the industry moving in.
right, that we're like supporting this environment that gives so much to us.
Jay (22:28.579)
Yeah. And maybe to, to draft on this, but, but move topics a little bit, let's say, you know, for some that maybe unfortunately the environment is not a focus, but if we replace that with something like safety, right. Or, or safety is really important to the culture that you want to build as a diver or who you are as a diver. The same thing becomes true. Asking a question around, Hey, how do you, how did you guys build your, your fill station?
Sarah (22:57.656)
Mm.
Jay (22:58.275)
Well, I don't know. It's just, it's always been here or sometimes you're get this really thoughtful. We did this to do that, to reduce this, to do that, or hey, where, where are your analyzers? I mean, I love walking into a dive operation and there's a, you know, three or four analyzers and an analyzing station and they're encouraging everybody to analyze the gas, right? That, that makes my little diving heart happy, right? Cause I go, yes, exactly. Right. You take some personal responsibility, right? For, for what you're breathing.
Sarah (23:21.136)
You
Jay (23:27.811)
so I mean, there's, there's a feel to walking into a dive shop for me or into a dive operator and going, yeah, they, they have the same value system that I do in how I push diving. So for me, it's, you know, my value system starts with, you know, the idea of the, I want to be safe. I don't think everyone says that, but I want to, I want to really focus on that. And two is, is the concept of the team team is part of that safety. Are they set up for teams? Are they not set up for teams? Right. How does that happen?
Sarah (23:37.87)
Mm -hmm.
Jay (23:57.635)
you know, and then it becomes about some of the equipment that's available, to rent and this condition of that. I'll give some examples. I mean, gosh, you asked for a stage bottle and Sarah, I'm sure you go through this with sidemount and it's incredible. The amount of creativity that can go into reading a stage bottle and you go like, they just don't get it. You know, they don't get who I am. If this is how things are rigged in the way that they are, or wow. Boom. Nailed it. Right. And, and those sorts of things.
are ways that I think at the end of the day, what you're looking for in an operator is somebody who's going to serve your needs with your value system. That's where you want your vote to go. I don't want to give my money to somebody who doesn't value their employees in the local culture that they're a part of, because that's part of my value system is local community. I also don't want to give my money to somebody who thinks that asking for an analyzer is like,
Sarah (24:37.23)
Hmm.
Jay (24:55.971)
You know, communicating, I don't trust you and you know, you're a bad person. And I've had that experience. That's not somewhere I want to ever go back to. So I think it's not just about the environmental or eco -focused. That's a part of, of a value system. There are other values that make you up as a diver that you want to look at. And for some people, you know, it also could be the value of, look, I'm on vacation. I want to have fun. I know those, those divers.
Sarah (25:00.048)
Right.
Mm -hmm.
Jay (25:21.283)
So yeah, do you guys play music out on the way to the site? Do you, you know, what do you, you know, do you guys do barbecues afterwards? Do you guys have a, you know, whatever it might be, those things might be part of your value system and that becomes really important to you. And so I think when you talk about dive operators and you talk about choosing those, I think the first step, like we said, is education about the value system that you have and what that means. And then two is,
Sarah (25:23.76)
Right, yeah.
Sarah (25:35.056)
That's very true.
Jay (25:47.235)
being able to ask open -ended questions, let these operators talk about themselves and let them see if they're going to be a match to serve your needs with your values or maybe not. And at that point it's time to kind of move on to the next one until you can find one that does.
Sarah (26:02.576)
No, no, that's a great point. I've been harping on the environmental part because I'm worried. But that is a great point. So going from there, choosing an instructor, I'm sure we both have points, right? Points that we want to make for that. No, no.
Jay (26:25.603)
I just choose Azur Unlimited, that's it. That's my only choice.
Sarah (26:32.688)
When you're going for your next course, there's probably some options that you can choose from, hopefully, to book your next course. And I think the same conversation that you were just keying up there, that's useful for choosing an instructor. It's what is your learning style? Understanding that about yourself.
What are you aiming to learn? Does that instructor have experience with what you're aiming to learn? And are they going to provide the quality that you're hoping for? What are you hoping to get out of the course? Is that understood by your instructor? And is the goal achievable? Right? Like.
Jay (27:07.201)
Yes.
Sarah (27:27.632)
It's not really a good idea to have super specific expectations like, you know, what you want to see during the course or whatever, because that's all up to the world and nature. But I think setting yourself up for that and asking those questions is really important. I've gotten it a lot because I tend to be one of the few side mount instructors.
in the places where I am these days, right? Like when I was in Mexico, everybody was a side -mount instructor, so it wasn't that big of a conversation. But now it's not a common thing. And so people ask, like, how, you know, can I do this with you? Or like, could I do it with another instructor? Whatever. I'm like, it's great if you want to do it with another instructor. Just make sure that they...
dive with sidemount regularly. Like they actually have experience with it. They didn't just like do the course and a handful of dives and called it done. Right. So I'm sure you have more to add to that.
Jay (28:29.955)
I have lots of opinions about instructors, but when you hit on the number one, maybe the thing that sums it all up is to find an instructor who dives the way that you want to dive.
Sarah (28:31.022)
Yeah.
Sarah (28:42.224)
Mm -hmm.
Jay (28:42.883)
That's what I say. And in open water, it's so hard because if you're just starting out, I mean, you have no idea what good looks like, right? You have no idea the different styles of diving and schools of thought and so on and so forth. And so it's an almost impossible task to come out with that in open water because you don't even know what you want to dive like yet, right? But as you advance and as you grow as a diver, I think, you know, like I said, in my journey,
There are ways that you can look at going for specialty. So you're talking about sidemount, right? Let's talk about sidemount. I think we had to do a whole episode on sidemount because I like talking about sidemount. But, you know, there's a big debate at least between Florida sidemount and Mexico sidemount. Let's just, you know, that's, that's true. And again, so, you know, you have people that would say, okay, well, I'm going to go get trained in sidemount. I'm going to go get trained in Florida sidemount.
Because that's where I'm gonna dive and I think this person's right and that person's right and I've watched all their videos and so on so forth or the person to say I'm gonna be trained in Mexican side mount because that's where I want to be and I watched this person's video and it looks pretty and all whatever right Now that again is is following an instructor who dives the way you want to dive in some ways, right? For me, that's kind of specialized learning side mount for Florida learning side mount for Mexico, right?
versus for me, I was faced with those decisions. So I wanna go learn here, in that environment, what about my home environment? I don't have access to that. My decision on who I've chosen as kind of my mentor and my instructor has been, I want someone who has an approach to diving period that's applicable across all of the different types of diving that I wanna do. So I wanna dive like him and learn from him because of the multifaceted skill.
that he brings to the table, that was where I made my decision. So I want to be a very well -rounded diver because my ultimate goal in diving is expeditions. I want to be able to grab the tool that I need to explore that passage of whatever it is. And that might be sidemount, it might be CCR, it might be back -mounted singles, it might be who knows, right? But I want to be very well -rounded in my skills. And that's the instructor that I chose.
Jay (31:05.699)
And so when it comes to instructors, I think it's really important to start with yourself. What kind of diver do I want to be? The question I was asked when I get asked, hey, can you teach a side mount course for me? Why side mount? Why are you going down that road? Usually you get the answer, it looks cool, or it looks like so much fun, I want to try it. That's fine. Like, it's fine if you want to try it out. I just want to try it.
My philosophy on sidemount, and I love the feeling of sidemount, but my philosophy on it is it's a tool that I'm gonna use when I need it. It's not a lifestyle for me, where it is for other people. I don't know how you feel about it. I'm not putting you in the category or non -category. So if you wanna learn sidemount as a lifestyle, I'm not a good instructor for you, because that's not how I dive. If I can get there in back -mounted doubles, I'm getting there in back -mounted doubles. So I mean, those are the kind of...
the scales in terms of making decisions around instructors as you grow as a diver that you have to weigh out. And I think the danger is, is when you start to piecemeal it all together and try to make the J way. I think that sometimes that can lead you down a path that, that it works the way that they do it. For example, I'll give a quick example. Sorry, I'm talking a lot about this. I'll pause, but I'll give a quick example after I pause. So.
I don't know how you feel about all that, but that's my two cents on choosing the instructor. Like I said, I had a lot to say about this subject.
Sarah (32:32.976)
No, I think it's good. It's good. I like what your focus is. And I already mentioned this, but also taking into account somebody's teaching style and the way that they approach handling students and communicating with students, at least for myself, I do not do well with a certain type of instructor.
and I know exactly that type of instructor and I will never take a course from somebody like that, right? So like you were saying, being in tune with yourself and knowing what won't work for you. And then doing the research, spending some time talking to the instructor before you sign up. If they do have a social media profile,
platform, like you can watch some of their stuff and see how they talk about things, how they explain things, does it make sense to you? All of that is part of the decision -making process. So, continue. Let's hear this example.
Jay (33:41.379)
Yeah, so I a little passionate about this portion, but you I think you're absolutely right. It's it's a it's a matter of of that learning style as well. Like I quit baseball, which was my biggest one of my biggest regrets in life. Quote unquote. It's not really, but I loved baseball. I still love baseball and I was decently good at it to the point where I got promoted too fast. That makes sense. Like I was playing way above my my age group.
Sarah (33:43.406)
No, no, it's good.
Sarah (34:05.326)
Mm -hmm.
Jay (34:09.923)
And that ended me up with a all -sourced coach in, you know, two, two or three years way up farther than I should be, who was a yeller and a degrader and a very militaristic way of coaching, which worked for some of the kids on my team. It demolished me, my confidence and my view of that game. So I know for myself, I don't do well with that type of instruction.
Sarah (34:18.894)
Mmm. Mmm.
Jay (34:39.651)
Whereas others do really well with that type of, I also am not great or don't do well in the instruction that just keeps telling me, yeah, yeah, it looks good. And won't give me critical feedback. I want critical feedback. I just want it in a way that isn't, you know, yelling and screaming in our face. That's not for me. Whereas some people pay good money to go work out in that situation, right? specifically for that. So again, it's a learning style thing. I'm very,
Sarah (34:50.384)
Right.
Sarah (34:55.024)
screaming in your face.
Sarah (35:01.744)
Ugh, God.
Jay (35:07.811)
heady in that sense. I really want to know the wise behind things. And if an instructor that I'm working with, you know, gets annoyed by the question, why I'm probably a nightmare student for that person. Right? So the point being is, is yeah, learning how you learn best. finding someone who dives in the way that you want to dive or, or you aspire to dive. And I think the third thing, like I was saying before is, is trying to, to be consistent.
along that path. And the example I was going to give is, you know, we'll talk about stages a little bit on the, on the boat one. And they're just on my mind because I've been reading a lot of stage bottles lately. I don't know why, but people have different ways of, of stage bottle rigging and all these things. One of the things that was, you know, I, in Florida, Sidemount, we put a little clip on the second stage with a zip tie.
Sarah (36:00.974)
Mm -hmm.
Jay (36:05.251)
because there's so much hard flow, I wanna be able to just clip that thing off. Okay, logical sense in some ways for that one particular moment in one particular cave, right, that that would make sense. If you take that and you say, this is how I'm always going to dive this, right, then you get into Mexico and say, what in the heck is that clippy doing on there? That's a, you know, a snag hazard because we know.
If the line is anywhere, we'll try to find a clip. That's just the way that line behaves for whatever reason under the water. So let's clip that thing off. yeah, that clip stupid. Of course, because the Mexican Simon instructor said that throw it away. You're like Florida and they say, wait, where'd the clip go? We need that thing. Why aren't you clipping your... And it gets yourself into this situation where you start to see that there are ways of diving.
for a particular environment that work in that environment. I'm sure there's some really interesting things for extremely high current and Komodo that work really well in Komodo, but it's not something that you just do on every dive, right? You know, reef hooks and things like that, John lines, those sorts of things are great for high current. So again, I look at it as be a very versatile, I want to be a very versatile diver. And for that, I want a system and a platform that's scalable for me.
Sarah (37:08.568)
Mm -hmm.
Jay (37:25.699)
an instructor that's going to teach me that, that then I can make decisions about how I then adapt to the environment. That's how I've chosen to go about it. So I'm not saying I'm right. I'm just saying that that's how I've done it and it's worked for me.
Sarah (37:39.664)
Yeah, I mean, I totally see where you're coming from. And I get that, like, especially with UTD, that your goal is to have somebody be your coach and like, I don't know how long they usually stay with people. I think my own rule is that I want to learn from as many different people, from as many different organizations, from, you know, I just want to learn, right, and different environments and...
just to like build my knowledge base, kind of like what you're referring to so that you have the tools to make the right choices in the specific conditions that you find yourself in. And I think we can be really limited if we stick with one instructor for all of our courses, right? Especially if that instructor has very limited experience because a lot of instructors do, like they've stuck with
diving in one place and that's what they know and that's that. So I think having a varied mentor group to pull from is a good idea.
even though I want to teach all of your courses, right? Like I do want to get, I want to get hired to teach all of your courses. I think it is a good idea to learn from a lot of different people.
Jay (38:54.391)
Yeah.
Jay (39:04.227)
Yeah. And I think that's a good way to sort it out too, is to ask that instructor, Hey, what, what are your strengths as a diver? What are some things you're working on? And that might seem like an awkward question to ask someone who's about to teach you, but I will tell you the answer to that question straight up. Right? Like I will say, I must, some of my strengths as a diver is my awareness, my team awareness, right. Is a strength of mine.
Sarah (39:25.582)
Mm -hmm.
Jay (39:33.993)
Strength of mind is being very versatile seeing lots of different things under the water So an area that I'm working on man. I ran a crappy line into the cave Yeah, it was it was great until one cut I made one wrong choice and You know getting more comfortable with laying line is something I'm working on. I don't have that cool like
Sarah (39:45.392)
Lord, I'm so bad at that, too. my God.
Sarah (39:57.456)
Yeah, same.
Jay (39:59.971)
You know, some guys could do this little for a placement, like this little drop placement thing that they've got their hands moving toward. Man, I try it on the surface and I look like an idiot every time I get tangled, wrap my fin in a, in a, in a line, but you know, on the surface. So I mean, there's the, I'm working on that as a diver, right. And I'm at, and right now I'm working on building hours on my CCR unit. Right. I got in the pool this week, just, just to get a little shake the rust off. I'm going diving tomorrow.
Sarah (40:20.942)
Hmm.
Sarah (40:27.77)
Nice.
Jay (40:28.419)
just to shake the rest off of my CCR unit. Cause my goal is to get to a place where I can see the next 1500, 2000 feet of this cave that I really like. We got in this last trip I took, we got to the end of really where we can get on open circuit. So we brought two stages, a deco bottle doubles on the back. We went through the whole thing and
Sarah (40:48.752)
Right.
Jay (40:56.515)
We kind of got, we explored as much as of those different passages, the side passages, all the jumps, all those sorts of things in that first 1500 feet of that cave in that particular system. And we're kind of, I'm kind of to the place where, okay, I want to see what's next because this cave goes 4 ,500 feet back, but I can't unless now we're getting into multiple setup dives and all these sorts of things on open circuit. So the next step is, yeah, DPVs exactly. So the next step is.
Sarah (41:10.392)
Hmm.
Sarah (41:20.324)
Yeah, DPVs and stuff.
Jay (41:26.819)
Yeah, exactly. DPV and or CCR. And so, you know, I already own the CCRs. I don't have to go buy a DPV, although I want one really badly. I'm not going to do that yet. and so that's, I got to build my hours and confidence so that I can get to a place where I can go explore that next, you know, 1500, 2000 feet of the cave that I want to see. So again, there's a reason for me to do that. So that's something I'm working on. So again, that question, where, where are your strengths? What are you working on? What are some goals you have as a diver?
Sarah (41:29.84)
Yeah.
Sarah (41:33.712)
Hahaha.
Sarah (41:47.022)
Hmm.
Jay (41:57.123)
And the other question I like to ask potential instructors is, when was the last dive you took and why? What about the last 10 dives? What was your best one out of them? And if the answer you get is, well, I only dive when I'm in class. Yeah, you gotta think about that. You gotta think about, well, that's the person to learn from. Because that's not what you're gonna be doing.
Sarah (42:19.504)
Well, to be fair, to be fair, some instructors, yeah, to be fair, some instructors are working full time as instructors, and that's the time that they have, right? Like, and they're surviving. So I don't think it's fair to like knock anybody out of the lineup just because they're working often, right?
Jay (42:23.395)
okay, let's see Devil's Advocate.
Jay (42:29.795)
True.
Jay (42:33.611)
Yeah.
Jay (42:45.443)
Well, what I mean by that is, yes, I agree. I hear, I hear your devil's advocate. But what I mean by that is you might get to a place where you understand that person doesn't dive for themselves for fun. And, and that's, that's something you can sort out. I'm not, I'm not saying it's a number of guys, but that they, they only have really ever dove that one Lake teaching open water classes and they have.
Sarah (42:57.36)
Right, yeah.
Jay (43:11.991)
You know, a thousand dives on that lake in open water classes, but don't do anything else. Right. To me, that would be an indication. I'm not going to learn from.
Sarah (43:18.224)
But it goes back to, yeah, it goes back to like, what are you aiming to get, right? If you're looking for your open water course, that's a wonderful person to hire, right? Because they're doing it all the time. Hopefully they're doing it well. Maybe, you know, sometimes when you get into that routine, you see a lot of people start not following all the standards or, you know, getting lazy with things. But yeah, I just, I wanted to push back on that because I know for,
Jay (43:32.213)
Hahaha.
Sarah (43:46.928)
portion of my career, I did not go fun diving for a long time, even though we taught all of our instructors, like, make sure you still go fun diving because you need to, like, that's how you're going to stay in this industry. But sometimes you just can't, you know?
Jay (44:03.939)
That's fair, that's fair. I won't redact my statement, but I'll say that's a good addendum.
Sarah (44:10.16)
I'm just saying, like, you know, understand, understand. Cool.
Jay (44:14.915)
I get it. I get it.
Sarah (44:17:35)
So you've heard a little bit of our back and forth on how we choose dive operators or instructors. We'd love to hear from you. So pop into the Facebook group. Let us know what your criteria are.
Jay (44:52.835)
Yeah.
Jay (44:56.971)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, sorry. Yeah more of the same for me.
Sarah (45:16.656)
You can also reach out to us directly either JJAY or Sarah with an H at thedivetable .com. So.
Jay (45:25.859)
Yeah, and thanks for joining us on this episode and we hope to have you back on the next episode of the Dive Table.
Sarah (45:31.408)
Bye.
