Jay (00:01.145)
Welcome to the Dive Table. I'm Jay Gardner.
Sarah (00:04.307)
and I'm Sarah Miller. And right now, as we record this, it is currently shark week. Shark week. Neither of us had this on our schedule because we don't watch it. But we recognize that it's a big deal for a lot of people and we're gonna talk about it.
Jay (00:10.809)
Shark week!
Sarah (00:27.699)
Okay.
Jay (00:31.769)
You want me to lead the session? So, all right, Sarah, three, two, one. All right, Sarah, let's face it. Sharks have a bad rap in general. They're like the villain of the underworld, you know, the underworld, the underworld. The undersea world, there we go. I could speak. And there's so many stories and so many things that, you know,
Sarah (00:33.459)
sure.
Sarah (00:43.187)
I mean...
Sarah (00:48.307)
Okay.
Sarah (00:55.411)
It's all good.
Jay (01:00.313)
come out of sharks. In fact, I was just in the pool with my kids like every day at summer. So every day all they want to do is swim all day, which is fantastic.
Sarah (01:06.995)
I mean, it's so hot right now. Like, that's the only way that you can exist with this heat wave that's going on.
Jay (01:12.857)
Yeah, we can't really. We live in San Diego where it's not that bad. I promised myself after moving from Texas, I'd never use the word hot unless it was true. So it's not too bad, but. They get in the pool and all they want to play is sharks and minnows, you know, and ultimately it's predator and prey, right? They want me to be the shark that chases them around and they want to run from me for some reason. So I mean sharks from the swimming pool all the way to the ocean have a bad rap.
Sarah (01:15.891)
Okay, fair.
Sarah (01:25.843)
That's fair.
Jay (01:42.777)
And we want to talk about it. And we don't really have a strong structure for this episode or point to make, but you and I wanted to talk about this. So I'm looking forward to the conversation.
Sarah (01:51.789)
I have a point to make. I hate Shark Week.
Jay (01:54.411)
Yeah. You do have a point to make. Great.
Sarah (01:58.707)
That is my point to make? No, I get really frustrated because I love sharks, as I'm sure most listeners feel the same way, right? Like a lot lot scuba divers really love sharks, maybe not all of us, but I think across the board, we can all recognize how important they are for the environment, right? And those of us that are obsessed with them, we don't want to see them painted as these like,
non -thinking, bloodthirsty killers. You know, ever since Jaws came out, like, I mean, even me, I'm from California, born and raised. I have, I want to see them, but I have an innate fear of great white sharks. Like, I just do. I mean, I've known people who have gotten bit, you know? So it's a scary thing, it's a real thing, but ultimately, they're animals in their environment.
we're not supposed to be out there. Like when we go in, we're signing a contract of like, we understand there are risks with going into the ocean, right? It's kind of like in certain places in California, there are riptides. Like you need to understand the risks that are at play. But I think people still have this idea that sharks are out there just looking for
human beings to munch on and it's like that's just not true. It's not.
Jay (03:28.057)
Yeah, yeah. I have an admission to make and this will probably lose all credibility with our listeners right now in general, but I actually have never seen Jaws. And that's a purposeful decision for me because I love the water and I never wanted to see a movie that would just be in the background playing. I mean, I've visited exactly, I've always thought it'd be funny to have an underwater speaker and you know, just.
Sarah (03:34.771)
Sarah (03:48.467)
Mm -hmm. Dun -un. Dun -un.
Jay (03:56.345)
that song on somehow. I don't know how you do it, but be able to play that song, you know, with with your friends and see how they react. But you'd have that background imagery somewhere latent in your brain. And so I've decided for a long time not to watch that movie. Although I have visited Bruce, who was the name of the fake shark that they used on the movie many times at Universal Studios and been through. But I think it's gone now, but they used to have this whole
Sarah (04:07.955)
Mm -hmm.
Jay (04:25.657)
Jaws attack on the back lot tour that you went into and the, you know, the doc gets pulled over and things explode and the big shark comes out and scares you. But there is a lot of sensationalism around sharks and in some ways it's understandable. They are large in some, some cases, large creatures with, you know, three or four or five rows of teeth, depending on the species that are sharp and they're sleek and look, you know,
can look scary under the water. The question is, are they innately scary to us or are we conditioned through all of this sensationalism, Jaws all the way through wherever to be scared of them? And it's an interesting question, right?
Sarah (05:09.651)
It's, yeah, I feel like it's, I mean, it's gotta be a bit of both, right? The thing that I, you know, people ask me all the time because when I say I love sharks and I'm talking to non -divers, they're like, my gosh, aren't you afraid? Like, aren't you afraid of them? And especially for scuba divers, it's a little bit different for swimmers and freedivers, spear fishermen. There are some different factors at play, but for, yeah, surfers.
Jay (05:35.449)
Surfers.
Sarah (05:38.579)
But for scuba divers, generally, sharks don't want to be around us. Like, unless we're participating in some sort of feeding activity, which I don't, that's a whole other conversation that we're not going to get into. They don't want to be around us. We're loud, right? Like, usually they're afraid of us or they can't be bothered. Like, it's kind of one of the two. I noticed that in places like Komodo,
Jay (05:49.657)
Hehehe
Sarah (06:06.899)
when it's strong current and whatever, like they don't care about what's happening with the aliens blowing bubbles around them, right? But in other places, like in Baja, when you go out to try to see hammerheads at Gordo Banks, which is in between Cabo San Lucas and San Jose, they're super scared of us, you know? So it's...
I don't know, people think that sharks are just gonna come out of nowhere and chomp your face off when you're scuba diving. It's like, that's not the case at all. I've literally never had a scary moment in scuba with sharks. And I've been diving with bull sharks. I haven't done any of the other big three, right? Like great white tiger and bull. I haven't done the other two, but like bull sharks, I've never had any issues.
Jay (06:40.793)
Yeah, yeah.
Jay (06:58.841)
Yeah, me neither. I've, I've, I'm the same. I've dove with a lot of bull sharks. I haven't done great whites yet and I haven't done tigers yet, which are on my list. But, yeah, me too. Me too. The great whites, especially, especially. But I mean, I think you're right. I think that they're there and we can get into feeding a little bit because that's a whole, like you said, a whole nother podcast of, of content, but I've only really had one moment ever in, in all of those dives that I felt my heart.
Sarah (07:07.315)
I want you so bad. So bad. Yeah.
Jay (07:29.305)
beat kind of accelerate and felt that. And it was all mental. Nothing to do with the behavior of the shark, but we had been on a bull shark dive. We were heading back to the boat and kind of, I don't know how best to describe it, but there was a collective fear. It was a very recreational boat and the people that are on it. And you just get this feeling underwater, which is a weird thing in general. We talked about for days, but that everyone just was tense and we were headed back to the boat.
Sarah (07:30.387)
Mm -hmm.
Sarah (07:45.395)
Mmm.
Sarah (07:57.139)
Mm -hmm.
Jay (07:58.713)
And in this particular dive site, the boat wasn't where it dropped us off, right? It was, it was, there was current. So we had to drift to, you know, with an SMB and get picked up by the boat. And I remember I'm, I'm kind of sensing this feeling of everyone really afraid. And I'm like, I'm good. I'll just let everyone else get back on the boat. And we're waiting on the surface. People are slowly getting back on the boat. And I looked down on the water, saw my mask. I looked down on the water.
and you see one of the bull sharks has followed us up to the boat. And that's likely because we had been feeding, right? Or I hadn't, but the trip, part of the people had been feeding. So they're still hungry and wants more food. So they're full and just looking down, you know, crystal clear water down, seeing this bull shark circling kind of up towards the boat with me, the only one kind of in the water at this point while other people are getting out. I felt that heart rate for a minute. Like,
Sarah (08:37.459)
Yeah.
Jay (08:56.249)
Wait a minute, I don't have the snacks. I don't have the fish here. Like, I hope you're gonna leave me be. And of course, you know, the shark got up there and noticed there was no food and went back down, you know, to 100 feet or wherever we were. No.
Sarah (09:07.955)
They're not dumb. That's the thing. Like, people think that they get confused, right? Like, that was kind of a common, I don't know, like, knowledge that people thought for a while or whatever, that they get confused. And so that's why shark attacks happen to humans, right? And that's not really the case because they're...
very intelligent. They understand the difference between a moving sea lion or something versus a surfer. But the thing is, they don't have hands. So like you and me, if we see something interesting, like we're going to pick it up and look at it and touch it, try to figure out what the heck it is. But sharks have their mouth. And unfortunately, when you need your mouth to
figure out what something is and you have big teeth tends to do some damage, right? So I think it's just a misunderstanding on our part of what they're doing because when shark bites happen to humans, you never hear about a shark like completely devouring a human being, right? They take a little look around and unfortunately that's pretty significant for us usually. It's damaging.
but they don't go back and like nom nom nom on us because we're not good food for them. They know that. So.
Jay (10:34.457)
Yeah. Yeah. And that's not to say, you know, to diminish, there are shark attacks that happen. And typically it is that experience of exploration, but you're exploring with, with the mouth. And so there, there are people that have experienced this, but when you get into the data and that's where I kind of like to look as well as to say, you know, shark attack, the odds of being bitten by a shark in Florida, let's just take with Florida.
Sarah (10:40.115)
100%. Yeah.
Jay (11:04.025)
This is what was published, are one in 11 and a half million. Yeah. So one in an 11 and a half million. That's being bitten. The chances of you dying or being killed by a shark are less than one in 264 .1 million. So they're very, very small. In comparison, you have a higher chance of dying from a lightning strike. That's one in 38 in coastal states.
Sarah (11:05.459)
Florida as always. Wait, say that again?
Wow.
Sarah (11:22.003)
Wow.
Sarah (11:30.163)
Yeah, I've heard that, yeah.
Jay (11:33.401)
or a wasp or a hornet. Guess what the rate is there. You have a one in six million chance of dying from a wasp or a hornet attack. So when you look at the numbers and you say, okay, yes, there are shark attacks, but they're very rare and the chances they're going to happen are astronomically low. Not that they're, they won't happen, but they're very, very low.
Sarah (11:58.291)
The thing is that they're very traumatic when they do happen, right? You're in the water, you're out of your element, right? And it's super scary because they come out of nowhere. So not to diminish anybody who has had a scary experience with sharks, but it's just, it's sort of a reality check, right? And so getting into what our topic, like the reason we're talking about this, shark week.
I get really annoyed with Shark Week. I honestly only see a handful of clips every single, you know, every year because I can't stand the sensationalism and the clickbaity culture of Shark Week. Last year, I got so fed up with last year, there was a program called Cocaine Sharks. Have you heard of this? It's, I watched like a little snippet of it because I was like, this is insane.
Jay (12:45.017)
Yes, this is ridiculous. I didn't watch it, but I heard of it.
Sarah (12:53.107)
There's like, I'm sorry, this is insane. So I had to watch some of it and it was as dumb as I thought it was gonna be. Like, first of all, there are so many things to research about the ocean and sharks. Like, why? Why are we spending time on this? Okay, like there could have been a really interesting point that they could have focused more on.
And the fact of, I've actually seen other articles come out about this, pharmaceutical runoff, right? Like people throwing their drugs in, you know, down the toilet or into the water supply and how that's affecting fish and creatures, you know? And that our pharmaceuticals are terrible. They don't degrade properly. There's not like a common...
a sort of responsibility of disposing this stuff properly. Right? So that could have been like a really interesting conversation to have, but instead they focused on sharks eating bricks of cocaine off the Florida coast. And like, could this be making them super ragey and attacking everyone? It's like, where are you going to get that data? How like,
Jay (14:05.465)
Yeah, exactly.
Sarah (14:08.211)
Again, sharks do not go after non -food just for like the fun of it, right? Like sure, because of the nature of cocaine getting dropped into the ocean, for sure some fish and sharks have been exposed to cocaine. I don't doubt that at all. But the idea that they're becoming these rage like cocaine addict sort of machines is absolutely absurd to me. Like...
I don't know, but it was clickbaity. I mean, it got me to watch part of it. So, I don't know. It's stuff like that that really annoys me because it's doing a disservice to sharks in general, and we need them. Like we need sharks in order for the ocean to be okay. They're apex predators, yeah.
Jay (14:58.553)
Well, let's talk about why exactly. And the reason why is because the, if you do any even light research on ecosystems, a lot of an ecosystem's resilience and biodiversity comes from the balance of prey versus predator. And typically there's much more prey than there is predator. That's the balancing system there. And if there's an imbalance,
the resilience in the biodiversity of that ecosystem degrades and eventually disappears. And so sharks as typically the apex predator in their ecosystem, and granted there are over, I think between 400 and 500 different species of sharks that we know about today. So that's not just, you know, the great white or the tiger or the bull that we've been talking about. There's tons of different sharks.
Sarah (15:51.091)
Yeah, we're black tip, like these nurse sharks, leopard sharks, like these smaller ones, right? Yeah.
Jay (15:56.537)
Horn tip sharks, we had a very sharky dive, right? With some horn tips, amazing that. But they're typically the apex predator in their ecosystem. And because of that, they play a vital or in a lot of times the way that you talk about this, they are a keystone species in that ecosystem. Meaning that if you remove that species from that ecosystem, the ecosystem will start to degrade or fail. And so sharks are an incredibly important part
Sarah (16:06.291)
Mm -hmm.
Sarah (16:15.347)
Mm -hmm.
Sarah (16:21.875)
Yeah.
Jay (16:26.521)
of our diversity under the sea and in their ecosystems. And so unfortunately, the biggest predator to sharks are humans, right? Overfishing, you know, shark fin soup, bycatch, all of those sorts of things. And also just fear, right? There are people that will kill them out of fear.
Sarah (16:39.539)
Bye catch.
Sarah (16:45.299)
Well, that's the thing that a lot of advocates in Australia are fighting against killing the sharks because they're at these popular beaches that people want to be. And it's like, that's where, that's their home. The fact that we want to be at the beach is whatever, right? Like we have all of land to explore. Doing that is crazy to me because it's...
completely disrupting that ecosystem, which is very dependent on sharks.
Jay (17:18.585)
Right, right. Yeah, and I think beyond that, there's also the role that sharks play in maintaining a lot of what we've come to known as the tourism that happens in these places. So if you enjoy the reefs that you go out and see wherever it might be, those reefs are regulated or balanced out by the presence of some sort of predator.
Sarah (17:34.258)
Mm. Yeah.
Jay (17:46.969)
And typically that predator is a shark. And we see actually the opposite of this in Florida. There's a lot of talk about the lionfish and the fact that the lionfish don't have a natural predator in that ecosystem because the sharks won't eat them or can't eat them. I don't remember exactly. I'll have to check myself on these facts, but they don't get eaten by an apex predator. So therefore they proliferate. Right.
Sarah (18:09.651)
Yeah, they're not from there. Yeah, exactly. And they eat like crazy. I mean, all of the juvenile fish. I mean, it's very clear when you go to those places. I haven't been diving in Florida, but experience in Mexico. And like, it's so clear when you see the effects. Like, I mean, just in the few short years that I lived there, there would be fish.
right at these popular dive sites. And then you notice the population of lionfish go up and a handful of weeks later, where are all the fish? I remember guiding one day and we hadn't gone out like we've as a dive shop in Ishkolak, we would do lionfish hunting, right? And we served it in the restaurant. It was, it was kind of cool actually. And people love participating in it and they know that it helps the reef. So it's, you know, win, win, win.
But I remember going to this dive site and looking around, I'm like, literally any fish, I would give anything to find a fish to show these people. It was wild. I felt so bad for them because I'm like, this is the reef and there's nothing here to see. Luckily, there's still coral there, but it was...
Jay (19:27.225)
Look at all these wet rocks.
Sarah (19:33.203)
mind blowing. All of a sudden, I remember all of a sudden a turtle came out of nowhere and I was like, thank God. Okay, everybody look at the turtle. But it's terrible. And that's what happens. And what I love about social media is it's combating this narrative, right? Like Discoveries Shark Week is a big thing. It has a lot of marketing behind it, a lot of bucks, right?
Jay (19:38.745)
hahahaha
Sarah (20:03.155)
And so they make these programs. So like the, the 2024 schedule, I, we have programs that are, let's see, belly of the beast, bigger and bloodier. I, we have Sydney Harbor shark invasion, right? There's, there's big shark energy, which is just, it makes me, huh, like gross that I don't, yeah. Great white.
Jay (20:19.833)
invasion, yeah.
Hmm.
Sarah (20:32.531)
serial killer, sea of blood, deadliest bite. Yeah. I mean, it's just, it's Monsters of Oz. Like what great white danger zone, shark attack island. Like it's just, it's really annoying, honestly. Like that's just how I feel about it. Like it's annoying.
Jay (20:35.257)
wow, that one's good.
Jay (20:52.921)
Yeah, sensationalistic.
Sarah (20:56.179)
And what I love is there are people, influencers, scuba instructors, freediving instructors, expedition guides who are showing the real side of being around sharks and how important they are to the environment, but also to the people in these locations, right? Like you were talking about tourism is a big moneymaker for people. It provides jobs.
And sharks are much more valuable alive than dead. Like there, we've proven that time and time again. So seeing these people show the realities of sharks, showing them in the wild and, you know, especially some of the people that I follow or I've seen on social media, maybe get a little too handsy for my...
my liking, but you know, they know a lot more about swimming with those sharks than I do. Maybe that's necessary if you're doing like free diving or snorkeling trips with these sharks, but they really show the reality that they're just there and they're curious, but they're not bloodthirsty for us. We don't register as their food.
Jay (22:14.617)
And you hear all those words, right? They're very, very strong words, attack, invasion, bloody bite, you know, all of these kinds of things that immediately you can imagine in your brain, right? An invasion of sharks, what comes to your brain. Just, you know, sharks with, you know, one uber shark leading them down the path of like, you know, an army of them coming to get you.
because they're hungry and they don't like the humans, you know? And that's kind of unfortunate in the sense of this sensationalistic view. And so I was curious, I went and I really liked the World Wildlife Organization and I wanted to see what they had to say about all this. And so I pulled up an article, they have a whole thing about this sensationalistic view of sharks and they walk through a few myths around sharks. So maybe we could walk through them and
Sarah (22:56.531)
Yeah.
Jay (23:10.713)
And right alongside the, the world wildlife organization, dispel some of these myths. And for you as scuba divers out there, we seem to be as divers much more educated on this species than most people are. I would say non -divers would be. And so these are things maybe you already know, but now you can take and, and help your friends who are watching shark week and going, my gosh. And then they say, you know, I mean, I gave a
Sarah (23:10.835)
Yeah.
Jay (23:39.929)
little presentation, not a presentation, I don't know what you call it, but I went into my kids classes and talked about scuba, right? And, you know, so you bring the gear and you talk about, you know, okay, well, I need to swim, so what do I use? And I need to be warm, so what should I wear? And, you know, all this stuff and let them breathe off of regulator and then immediately like disinfect the thing. But it's so funny because then you do a Q and A afterwards and it's consistent whenever I talk to kids about sharks, the first question. And the funniest one I ever got was,
Sarah (23:44.947)
Cute.
Jay (24:08.345)
Have you ever been eaten by a shark? Well, logically here, buddy, like I'm not gonna go into the logic of your question, but no, you know, sharks are actually really amazing creatures to see under the water and that even kids, you know, have that. So maybe we could walk through these myths together and talk to them. What do you think? All right, shark myth number one, all sharks are big and they all have lots of sharp teeth.
Sarah (24:10.259)
Yeah.
Sarah (24:24.083)
Yeah. What's the first one? Hit me with it.
Sarah (24:36.019)
We know that's not true. You can actually see all of the sharks that we saw on one of our last dives together. We only dove together a couple of times in Southern California, but we did that horn shark dive that you mentioned. And they're little. They're so cute. Like, you just want to not that you should touch them, but you just want to like boop their little snoots. Like they're so cute.
Jay (24:37.785)
Yeah.
Jay (25:01.529)
Yeah, and actually those sharks, based on that dive, because I went and did some research, they have like molars because what they eat is shellfish. So they use the molars to crush the shells to eat the shellfish. So they don't even have sharp, crazy teeth that people think of. They're molars, right? Which is wild.
Sarah (25:13.747)
Mm.
Sarah (25:24.179)
Yeah, all of the sharks, they'll have different teeth based on, like you said, what they eat, right? The scavengers are going to be different than the great whites of the world, right? I've gone diving several times with the sixgill shark in Seattle, and they're scavengers. So they have different set up for their teeth. Some of them are razor sharp, so they're still, you know, you got to be careful.
Jay (25:43.449)
Mm -hmm.
Sarah (25:53.267)
but it's not the same structure.
Jay (25:59.545)
Yeah, World Wildlife Organization points out they say more than 400 different species. I've also seen the number 500 thrown around. And they say there's everything from the eight inch long deep water dogfish. So eight inches, I mean, you can see that in your hand, right? Or in a piece of paper, eight and a half inches. Smaller than an eight and a half by 11 piece of paper that you probably have around you right now. All the way to a 40 foot whale shark.
Sarah (26:25.075)
Mm -hmm.
Jay (26:28.185)
which that's on my list as well. I mean, the larger creatures there would be amazing. So I mean, there's a vast variety of sharks and they all are playing a different role in the ecosystem. And they are not all big with lots of sharp teeth. In fact, I saw a video recently of these nurse sharks. So I don't know if you've been around nurse sharks, but they're kind of like the golden retriever of sharks, right? They're puppy dogs, right? And they're...
Sarah (26:51.699)
yeah.
Jay (26:55.129)
completely harmless, even if they bite you, they're harmless, right? And they never bite. And it was hilarious because there's this video, an overhead video, like an aerial drone flying overhead of these snorkelers somewhere, four snorkelers. And some nurse sharks come into the area that they're in and are swimming around and these snorkelers just lose their minds. I mean, they're like hugging each other for safety and like, you know, reassuring each other, we're gonna die, I'm gonna hold you.
Sarah (27:22.355)
Jay (27:23.673)
And they're, they're like big kind of muscular frat boy looking guys that like are just like babies in there and then each other's arms like running away from these nurse sharks. And you just laugh because you go like guys, like you have no idea what's in the water next to you and they see the sharks and they're trying to run and all this stuff and they're scared to death of these things. And, and so again, it does totally.
Sarah (27:28.339)
Poor things.
Sarah (27:42.483)
But it makes sense, right? Because again, we've been exposed to all this stuff. And if you're not familiar with the ocean, you don't know the difference between a nurse shark. And I mean, hopefully you would know the difference between that and a great white because we've seen them so many times. But you don't know. You don't know what you don't know. But that's true.
Jay (28:00.697)
Yep. Yep.
So there's a good way again for us scuba divers to be advocates. You know, you've probably seen a species of shark that wasn't that torpedo shaped, you know, sharp teeth, sleek looking shark that's portrayed in the movies that you can say, no, I've had some amazing experiences with some nurse sharks. They're like puppy dogs, you know, or with some horn sharks and they're really cool. And here's the video.
Sarah (28:09.523)
Mm -hmm.
Jay (28:33.625)
And we can, we can educate non -divers in some ways of the fact that sharks are actually very diverse and very important to our ecosystem. So there's some fodder.
Sarah (28:42.099)
Yeah. When we used to do those lionfish hunt dives, it was always funny. Not so much on the reef right outside of Ishkolak, but we would go to Banco Chinchorro, which is like, what is it, 33 nautical miles offshore. Beautiful place, full of nurse sharks, and we would hunt some lionfish out there. And man, they were like...
like you said, puppy dogs, they would just come after the, what is it? The lionfish keeper, whatever you call that, zookeeper, there we go. And they would just be hanging out with us the entire dive, not necessarily going after the thing, but they were just interested, right? They smelled the fish and everything. And it was always so fun because people would get freaked out by it. And it's like, it's fine. They're not gonna, they're literally not gonna do anything. Like take some photos.
Jay (29:15.833)
Yeah, the Keeper Zookeeper. Yeah, I think they call it. Yeah.
Jay (29:33.945)
Hahaha
Sarah (29:38.323)
They're enjoying this too. All right, what's next?
Jay (29:39.929)
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. All right. Myth number two. All sharks are man eaters or sharks are managers. We have
Sarah (29:47.699)
Well, we've already covered that one, so we know that that's not true.
Jay (29:53.273)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, again, you have everything from, like you say, all of the different ways that they're going to eat, but majority of sharks eat fish or invertebrates such as squid or clams. And you even have, you know, the whale shark that's straining plankton through it's modified gills. Right. so there are lots of different ways that the humans are not food for sharks.
We are not considered a food source, period, right? Most of the incidents that we hear about are either exploration of is this a dolphin or is this a seal or it's a case of mistaken identity for whatever reason. And that's where that all comes in. So we are not food for sharks. And I think we can just put a period at the end of that.
Sarah (30:23.507)
period.
Sarah (30:39.251)
Yeah.
Sarah (30:48.179)
There we go. What's the next one?
Jay (30:50.265)
Alright, number three. Sharks are not important.
Sarah (30:54.515)
We've already covered that one too, actually. So is there one that we haven't talked about?
Jay (30:57.113)
We just we're nailing it. We're nailing it here. There's only five. I think there's only five Yep, so let's see number four Can anything hurt a shark?
Sarah (31:09.491)
well, we've also talked about that, right? People are the biggest factors here. Otherwise, they're pretty much left alone.
Jay (31:21.817)
Yeah. Yeah. And, and it's important to note here, I think in this is that sharks grow in again, relativity to other species pretty slowly and they don't produce like a ton of young. They don't pop like a ton. I remember I was in, in, playa I think, and there were a bunch of pregnant nurse sharks or pregnant bull sharks. Sorry.
Sarah (31:32.435)
Mm -hmm.
Sarah (31:48.243)
Yeah, that's usually the winter months when you see them in Play del Carmen. Those are pregnant females.
Jay (31:54.937)
Yeah. And I think they, they pop one or two, at most. I don't, I don't know the exact number, but it was, it was, I was surprised at how few there, there were per each of the females. And so because of that, they're, they're not like prolific, you know, they're not like land bunnies, which my goodness, our, spring came around our property here and the bunnies just, wow, they just show up everywhere. And so they're not like that. and so because of that,
Sarah (32:19.987)
Hehehehe
Jay (32:24.569)
You know, the, the ghost nets and, and like we've talked about our regulated fishing and, you know, shark fin soup and all these sorts of things, bycatch all that, taking out a shark, the, the repopulation rate is relatively low. So it has a high impact versus like you talk about with the lionfish, you know, they're, they're, they're the bunnies of the reef, right? yeah.
Sarah (32:44.435)
Yeah.
Sarah (32:48.399)
my gosh, they're re - my goodness. They reproduce like crazy. It's insane. All right.
Jay (32:54.713)
Yeah. So yes, things can hurt sharks, mostly humans.
Sarah (32:58.515)
Yeah, what's next?
Jay (33:00.409)
man, and we covered this one too. So we should have read this through first and then, but sharks attack people often. So we just talked about the rate that that's there. You know, they said in 2018, so here's some more stats. Only five shark related human deaths, 2018. I don't have the, the 2023 stats in front of me.
Sarah (33:09.427)
And we know that that's not true.
Jay (33:28.217)
But again, they reinforce the fact that you're more likely to be struck by lightning than to be attacked by a shark. So we know that's not true. So, hey, look, we covered most of the World Wildlife Org's points here, which is great without us actually going through the list. So congratulations to us, I guess.
Sarah (33:38.515)
Bada bing, bada boom.
you
So I think the takeaway is if you like Shark Week, like that's great, you know, and you do do you I don't want to yuck anybody's yum or whatever. But like, I guess I kind of already did when I said that I didn't like Shark Week. But, you know, if that's if that's part of your regular your yearly discovery watch, then, you know, that's fine. But also be an advocate for the truth. Right. Like
we can take their programs with a grain of salt that they're titling things to get views and to draw in people that, you know, it's kind of like the news. It's like the negative stuff gets the most traction. Like that's just whatever it is about human nature. You could probably talk more about that. We're drawn to the drama, right? Like that's just what
conscious like I don't I don't know what it is about us that that does that but it's
Sarah (34:52.307)
It's that balance of, okay, we're going in here to be entertained versus like, what is the truth and what needs to happen for these creatures? Because if we keep hurting them at the rate that we are, we are gonna see just like in all these other aspects of environmentalism, like there's so many things collapsing around us and we have to change something.
Jay (35:19.737)
Yeah. And I think to build on your point there, I think, you know, if you just think physiologically, why are we attracted to things that kind of scare us, right? when it comes to not just sharks, but when we start to talk about roller coasters or horror movies or just that, you know, the, the apex or climax of a movie that we really enjoy an action movie. And it's, it's that fight or flight, you know, innately that kicks into us.
right? That shot of chemicals that we get when we go, my gosh, you know, we get tense and there's a payoff to that, right? There's a payoff from the adrenaline to the nice hit of serotonin, right? And that comes through and calms us down when there's resolution and all these things, right? We are physiologically built with this fight or flight mechanism that gets triggered by
Sarah (35:59.891)
Yeah, that adrenaline hit.
Jay (36:18.681)
something that's scary like a roller coaster. And the way that that happens in storytelling is that as we see ourselves or we're seeing a story, we innately put ourselves into the role of that character. That's why you have all these, you know, Harry Potter, which house are you in? And are you, I don't know, what was the big vampire, were you into the vampire thing? I never got into it, but there was like a big one vampire versus the other vampire thing with whatever series that was that people put them in.
Sarah (36:32.019)
Mm -hmm.
Sarah (36:42.579)
No.
Sarah (36:47.763)
Yeah.
Jay (36:48.313)
It's us, you know, reflecting or art reflecting ourselves, right? And us kind of putting ourselves in that story. And so when we're watching this, what is it? The shark invasion, bloodiest bite ever, you know, show we're putting ourselves in the role of the unassuming swimmer who's about to be invaded by all these sharks. And that triggers that fight and flight. It triggers that chemical release.
Sarah (37:13.107)
Mm -hmm.
Jay (37:16.121)
And so again, I think you make a really good point is to be aware of why you're doing that or why you're attracted to it. If you like it, hey, if you like it, you like it. I'm not a big fan, but I think the flip side of that coin is to also have a tinge of reality. And for me as a parent, it's really important to educate my kids on sharks.
Sarah (37:41.235)
Yeah.
Jay (37:43.257)
And I'm not saying that you should be, you know, the, the, you know, banner child for educating all your friends, you know, host a party to educate them on the reality of sharks during shark week. But as these stories come out, as this kind of sensationalism comes out, and I tell you, it's probably one of the top three questions I get from non -divers that find out that I'm a diver. Did you get a, have you ever seen a shark? And my answer.
Sarah (38:06.163)
Yeah, 100%. Yeah.
Jay (38:11.961)
is practiced at this point. It's yes, I've definitely swam with sharks and dove with sharks and they're incredible creatures. And let me tell you about why. And then people are usually like, well, aren't you afraid? Like, no, not at all. Like they're, they're amazing creatures. And here's the role they play in ecosystem. And here's actually some of the challenges they face with overfishing and ghost nets. And here's, you know, my experiences with them. And by the way, here's a cool video. I always have that shark video. I had a bull shark.
Sarah (38:19.955)
Mm -hmm.
Jay (38:40.729)
swim right over the top of my head. It was an incredible, like cinematic moment. And an incredible moment for me in my diving. I'll never forget, you know, this just beast of a shark swims right by me. And it was awesome. So I think that that's a role that we can play as divers is in maybe being a softer edge to the sensationalism and the storytelling that's out there with our own storytelling one -to -one.
Sarah (38:43.795)
Nice.
Jay (39:09.721)
of our own experiences with them. And I'd also encourage you if you're a diver and maybe this has been something that you've wanted to do, but you've been afraid or that maybe you've avoided because of you watch too much Shark Week. I encourage you to do the research on your own. Don't believe Sarah and I do the research on your own and challenge yourself to take one of those dives. And I think you'll find the rewards to be far outweighing the risk for sure.
Sarah (39:38.643)
Let's go shark diving. Yeah. Cool.
Jay (39:41.849)
Absolutely. By the way, I looked it up as we close this one. Worldwide, 2023, 69 attacks worldwide and 36 of those happened in the US. Here's the interesting stat here is the states with the most Florida, unsurprisingly, Hawaii's second with eight, New York's number four, North Carolina's number three with three, California was two, only had two.
Sarah (39:59.059)
Of course.
Jay (40:11.577)
I know. South Carolina had two and New Jersey had one. And of course, you know, the great state of Wisconsin leads all of them with 50, you know, land shark bites. I'm just kidding. Land shark. Two favorite species of shark, land shark and cave shark for sure.
Sarah (40:24.691)
I was like, where, what is happening right now?
Sarah (40:32.595)
my God. That's kind of, that's surprising to me. I hadn't looked up the current stat. I figured California would be higher up on that.
Jay (40:41.689)
Me too, me too. And they say that 42 % of the unprovoked attacks or bites were surfers. So the vast majority of surfers, which makes complete sense, right? Well documented.
Sarah (40:52.659)
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, they spend the entire time of their sport at the surface. Like we always say, being at the surface is the most dangerous spot for us as scuba divers, right? It's usually because of boat traffic. That's the standard thing that we're worried about at the surface. But, you know, the sharks check out things that are on the surface. So that makes sense. Cool. Well, I think that's pretty good.
Jay (41:08.089)
Yeah. Yeah.
Sarah (41:23.283)
I would love to see people's favorite photos. Like if you have a video or a photo of that shark going over you, you should share it in our Facebook group. Okay, there we go. We could get like even just a screenshot of like the moment. That would be really cool. And I would love to see anybody else's like favorite shark moments, photos or whatever. You can check out the Dive Table group on Facebook.
And as always, you can reach out to me and Jay. I'm Sarah with an H at thedivetable .com and Jay is Jay, J -A -Y at thedivetable .com. So thank you so much for listening. Anything else from you, Jay?
Jay (42:02.361)
Yeah, one last point would just be, yeah, and get involved. There are a lot of amazing organizations that are focused on shark conservation. And so if you are interested or passionate about this or whatever it might be, and that's a challenge to myself as well. I have not taken on that challenge to get involved in one of those organizations, but there are a lot. I know I need to.
Sarah (42:08.083)
so many.
Sarah (42:22.963)
You should. I'm doing a, I've told you, and I've told these people, I'm doing a trip with fins attached and we're doing shark conservation and shark research in Socorro. That's happening April, 2025. And like so cool. They're doing such interesting work. There are many organizations that work directly with sharks. And we're, but we're actually going to have, the plan is to have fins attached on the podcast in, in the future. So hopefully that will.
Jay (42:32.889)
Yeah, amazing.
Sarah (42:52.627)
get scheduled and we'll be live for all of you to listen to very soon.
Jay (42:56.985)
Absolutely. Yeah, so get involved if you can and thank you for joining us on this episode of the dive table We hope to have you back on the next one
Sarah (43:05.299)
Bye.
