Jay (00:01.603)
Welcome to the dive table. I'm Jay Gardner and with me today are, I've lost count at this point, but what number of co-hosts this is, but I'm super excited to have us join the show today. My good friend, my training buddy, my dive teammate, my housemate for multiple of these times we've been on. What else? We've, I don't know how many meals we've eaten together at this point, but it's a lot. And how many ice creams we've devoured, especially this last trip. But...
Mr. Kevin would Kevin, so excited you're on the show. And this feels like, you know, like every day to me, we've spent so much time together. So why don't you take a moment introduce yourself super happy to have you on the show.
Kevin (00:43.774)
Thanks, Jay. Kevin Wood, here in the great state of Louisiana. Hopefully Star Chasm is coming through just fine. So background, I guess since this is a scuba diving podcast, Met Jay was it almost a year and a half ago? Almost two, something like that, trying to go through the UTD instructor life and upgrade program there. But before there, got certified in college back in 2008.
Jay (01:01.415)
something like two years so
Kevin (01:14.506)
dove all over the Caribbean, had a lot of fun there. And then as we'll get to later on in this podcast work, gave me the opportunity to go out to Guam out in the Pacific, which is lovely and beautiful. Did my intro to technical diving and got the bug for going deeper and staying longer. Came back to Louisiana and looked around, didn't see much diving there, so decided to go find it. And that's where we found UTD and multiple trips out to San Diego.
Stayed with Jay all of those times. Great hospitality. Which by the way, girls and magic all doing fine.
Jay (01:50.831)
They are they are doing fine. It's a little warm today for San Diego standards, but I kind of laugh like this is nothing.
Kevin (01:57.849)
I'll come. This is the first day in 40 days. It hasn't been over a hundred degrees here in Louisiana. It went to 99. So that's it.
Jay (02:01.831)
Oh wow, oh yeah, oh, that's, yeah, that's, for some reason though, there is a difference. I don't know why when I was in Texas for those five years, like if it wasn't triple digits, for some reason mentally I thought it was cooler, even though, you know, effectively it really isn't.
Kevin (02:17.866)
I mean, it's one of those things you get used to 103 degree temperatures and then it's like you wake up and it's 75 outside and you're like, whoo, time to go get the sweatshirts. But yeah, so it started doing the UTD thing. Jay and I were both training buddies going through kind of I guess the trial run new phase of how UTD and creates instructors. So that's pretty cool to that. And I'm sure we're gonna touch on that here, either this segment or the next one. And then
Somewhere in there, I guess we can talk a little bit about what's coming up, but I've been down to the caves in Florida, the Mill Pond in Mariana, Florida, did a bunch of cave diving there and loved it. So been all over. There's still places that are still on my to dive list up in the Great Lakes, maybe out in Europe, stuff like that. But just enjoying the ride and meeting new people, having some great times and that kind of stuff.
Me in a nutshell, and then, oh yeah, by work, I'm an instructor at the B-52 schoolhouse for the United States Air Force. So that pays the bills and buys me air to go put in my tanks to go jump underwater. So the my saying is I'm not happy on land. I got to be above it or below it. So.
Jay (03:32.519)
That's right. That's right. Yeah. So I mean, there's lots of interesting parts to that story for sure. But I think too, one of the things that I was really excited about having on the show is we were actually talking about this the last time you were out here a few weeks ago was, you know, as you start to advance in scuba and that's not even a good way to put it because advance assumes that there's like rankings and things there isn't, but as you I'd say maybe.
want to go deeper, stay longer, get more into maybe technical diving or cave diving and those things. One of the lessons that I took away from a lot of training I've been on and some of those dives I've done is the number of people that you'll do those dives with starts shrinking pretty quickly. Like, you know, your Rolodex gets smaller and smaller and smaller. And you start really thinking about people who you would have on your team if you want to go and do like, you know, one of my big dives on my list is the swim through the big O in the hangar day.
hangar Bay, right? Like the number of people that I would go on that dive with is very small, because of the, you know, it's a big dive.
Kevin (04:37.826)
I think, I mean, that's gonna just drive from like, there's a complexity aspect, there's a risk, a life or death aspect of that. And it's not like we're a venture thrill seekers and we'll throw caution to the wind, but you want like-minded people that like, if you're gonna go home and spend hours in the pool practicing bottle rotations, and you're gonna go study videos of the hangar bay so that you know what to look for, the best way to get there, you're expecting the teammate to do the same. I mean, it would be
Jay (05:06.552)
Mm-hmm.
Kevin (05:08.386)
You wouldn't want to go with someone who, you know, you spend all this time, resource, capital to get out there. And then they go, yeah, it's cool. It's whatever. And then because of them, the dive doesn't go the way or they start forgetting stuff. And now you're dragging them along. It's just wouldn't be fun. I mean, same like, like we're going to get to the same thing in flying. There's, you know, everyone's trained to a basic level, but I can count on my hand. The individuals in the squadron that they're like, Hey, we're going to war.
you know, we're going for a fun flight. Yep, I know exactly who I'm gonna pick because I know they put the same level of time and dedication into it. And they also want you to get better. There's a little rivalry. So if like, if Jay can do a valve drill and only, you know, bounce around plus or minus a foot, I'm gonna do a valve drill plus or minus half a foot. And there's that little rivalry that goes back and forth. It's like, is it stupid? Yeah, but like it keeps it fun and interesting. And you're always pushing.
Jay (05:58.081)
All right.
Kevin (06:05.194)
you know, your team or your teammate to be better, which then makes everything else better, so.
Jay (06:10.127)
Yeah. And I think for me, one of the reasons that you're obviously on that, that Rolodex, one of the things that came to the realization of as much time as we spent together is we're very different people as well. Like the, the way that we approach something is very different. So I, I'll tell this stupid story, uh, because it was funny, but you know, I'm, I'm a bit of a people person and I find people interesting and you know, want to have conversations. Long story short, we, it was a long day.
I think we were stopping the gas station. Um, Kevin has, you know, a thing for monsters as well as I do, but I think yours outlasts mine or are definitely overshadows my, uh, yeah, there should be a little, uh, you know, you should have a meter on the outside of like your how caffeinated is Kevin and that will tell us how to react. But anyway, we went into a gas station to, you know, after a long day, it just gotten fills the whole deal. And there was this poor guy behind the.
Kevin (06:50.779)
You definitely saw what happens when Kevin goes to zero monsters for a day.
Kevin (06:59.56)
of like a fuel gauge.
Jay (07:09.455)
the counter who, you know, just, it just seemed like he needed someone to talk to, it just seemed seems so sad. So I just said, Hey, how's your day going? And usually people say, Oh, good. And that's the end of it. This guy went on like this whole thing. And I've learned like, either you dismiss that or you lean into it. And so I leaned into it. Oh, well, tell me more. What are you gonna have for dinner? What's this? What's that? Have this conversation with this guy. And Kevin's just over there rolling his eyes like, Oh, here goes Jay.
Kevin (07:35.314)
I had already paid and I was walking out the door. I was about to go grab your keys and sit in the truck, but this guy obviously did not wanna be there. He was fed up with probably a lot of shitty clients and stuff like that, people having their own lives and that kind of stuff. And then Jay just goes, hey, I'm Oprah, tell me your life story, let's go. And yes, it's the introvert in me.
Jay (07:59.784)
Well, anyway, yes. Yes. So a few days later, we went, you were needing a monster. It was another long day. And the closest place to the shop that there was, was this gas station. So I drove to that gas station with everybody in the truck to get Kevin a monster because we needed to stop. And man, I tell you, the minute I think I even turned on the blinker.
Kevin (08:02.546)
and the decaffeinated Kevin that's straight into the point.
Jay (08:27.547)
I was like, Jay, you're not going in there and talking to this guy again. Come on. Why are you going to put me through this? But Kevin, chill out, man. This is just the closest place to get a monster. Decaffeinated Kevin versus caffeinated Kevin. And, uh, and it all worked out. I only said hello to the guy.
Kevin (08:42.496)
But what you didn't say was I was completely quiet for the 45 minute car ride home from the beach So you're like, is Kevin dead? It's like Kevin. We're pulling into the gas station. So angry Muppet from the backseat, so
Jay (08:47.227)
True. Ha ha ha, true.
Jay (08:52.518)
Hahaha!
Yes. But one of the things I appreciate, I've really grown to appreciate about you is that we're not the same. And when you think about a team that's doing bigger dives, yeah, we the level of approach that we will take and detail and how much geeking out we've done over the numbers of tank factors. And that's not another thing and planning and all this stuff is great. But when there's a problem under the water, I know your thought process, and my thought process.
are going to be aligned from a procedural and a thinking process. But I also know you're going to cover my butt from the other end of things I might not be thinking about and probably the same show on the other side of that cycle. And so it makes a really good balanced team when you just had three J's or three Kevin's, it's not as a balanced team and you get to, you know, start to have that appreciation, the bigger and bigger dives that you do. So that was one of the reasons I was really excited to have you on the show is because
It's not, you know, we although we're in the same agency, we went through training together, we've done a lot of big dives together, all this stuff that we're not the same. And that's a good thing. So I was excited to bring that to kind of the scuba verse out there in podcast format for now.
Kevin (10:07.374)
Did you imagine the amount of monsters it would take to feed three Kevins? That's a lot of caffeine, man.
Jay (10:14.672)
I actually read this story. This guy had made some, I don't know, this TikTok or Instagram thing where he had literally his car. He had like, you know, a four-door sedan full of crushed canned monsters. And he just like tagged Monster and said, I'm not emptying it till I get a lifetime supply, your move, Monster. And apparently went off and went crazy. And eventually Monster said, we'll be in touch.
And the next video the guy posted was the car cleaned out. So the assumption that the internet has made is maybe this guy's received a lifetime, you know, supply of monster. But I think that's what it might take.
Kevin (10:52.926)
or a cease and desist letter from monster spoilers. So I got one of it. So I gotta get enough monsters to fill up the Bombay of the B-52 and just open it and just.
Jay (10:54.975)
I don't wanna see anything.
Jay (11:02.511)
Yeah, exactly. This will go over wherever. I think they're based in Corona, California. I think that's where Monster headquarters is. So you could fly over there and, hey, if I don't get a lifetime supply, you're going to get all your cans back for recycling here in a minute.
Kevin (11:13.582)
Yeah, mm.
Yeah, I've done enough in the airplane right now.
Jay (11:21.251)
All right, so let's jump into this. So I think for this first episode, knowing you are a B-52 instructor pilot, is that the proper way to say it? Okay. And knowing your history with Scuba and our friendship and all these things, I thought it'd be really, or we thought it'd be really interesting to go into some of the parallels between flying and diving and whether that be training or the actual.
Kevin (11:29.585)
Yeah, that's fine. That works.
Jay (11:47.635)
act of flying a plane, whether it be B 52 or be a Cessna or whatever, and diving and bounce back and forth between those worlds. Because that's like you said, you're happy on land, you need to either need to be above it or below it. So this is like in your wheelhouse of things to really talk about. So how does that sound to you? You want to do that for this first episode?
Kevin (12:08.226)
No, sounds great, man. And yeah, both are extreme passions of mine. We can get right on into it if you want to. All right, so I started flying back in high school, was lucky enough that there was a small airport by me. Did that 30 minute introductory flight to see if I would love it, just like try scuba.
Jay (12:18.351)
Yeah, let's do it.
Kevin (12:34.318)
And of course loved it. Came down, started doing lessons. And from that time, even as a little kid, going to air shows, museums, I know we went to some out there in San Diego last time, or two times before. But you just, the sound, the sight, the smell of air shows, of fast things, and then obviously I wasn't dating myself. I wasn't around when Top Gun 1 came out, but watched it enough times to
to burn out the VHS, which might be dating myself right now. So got the bug to fly and was lucky enough to keep doing that once, about once a week until the summertime and then that's when it took off. So, you know, we talk about in diving, you know, doing reps, you know, in the pool every week or, you know, diving every other day. Obviously the motor skills comes back and that'll be a big parallel between flying and diving. We'll touch on a bunch of them,
Jay (13:02.617)
Nice.
Kevin (13:30.726)
There's a lot of hand-eye coordination. It's not overly hard or complicated, but it does require a level of dexterity that you have to get to and you have to practice it. So I got my soloed, which was a day I graduated high school, which was awesome because they say takeoffs are optional, landings are mandatory. So pushing up the power, you're running down the runway, you got all the smells, the sounds, the radio's crackling, and then you lift off and you're weightless.
Jay (13:50.331)
Hehehehe
Kevin (14:00.334)
And it's like this is cool and you're like man this airplanes performing really good because small airplanes Cessna's like they're not high performance Airplanes because you're 230 pound flight instructors no longer in the airplane. So Things are going well, and then it's and then it hits you and then you're like, oh man I gotta put this back on the ground. I got to do it at least gracefully two more times afterwards to get my license And it's all on you
Jay (14:11.748)
Hahaha
Kevin (14:26.006)
A little bit different because this is a solo event and there's not solo, well, there is solo diving but obviously not for where we come from. So more team oriented. And we'll get to my later flying years of, yes, I was solo in an airplane, but I had a wingman. So, but no, and then you put it back down on the ground. It's not the most graceful landing. You may bounce it down the runway, but the confidence boost that you have from that is like, it's a huge thing. And I recommend to anyone that is in that realm, go.
go try to learn how to fly an airplane, or at least get the solo, because just like it's a huge character building exercise, because they just don't let anyone do it, and it takes time. So I did that, and then while I was in college, I went to college for engineering, did the ROTC program down at Virginia Tech, which Corps of Cadets, so military college on civilian campus, that kind of stuff. But during the summers came back and flew.
That was my civilian time, got all my ratings, did well enough in school to get a pilot slot to the United States Air Force, and then head down to Columbus, Mississippi for pilot training. There, go through the program, and the program starts off very heavily academic space. So death by CBT, and then you had old instructors that flew in Vietnam, talking to you, pointing at things on the board. Then you went to simulators, where you kind of put a lot of the academic...
stuff into motion and you got to practice it. You crashed the airplane, they would hit pause, they would talk about it. And then you actually hit the flight line and then the flight line was where you put it all together. Now, very similar in scuba. So we have academic e-learning, then you have the simulator. Well, I look at the pool as the simulator, right? We're gonna test things out, we're gonna breathe on the rigs for the first time, we're gonna play with buoyancy, but hey, if you get spooked, just stand up, it's four feet of water. Or it's so slow that we can write stuff out.
and do stuff over and over and over again. The weird thing is, and I was listening to one of Jeff's, Jeff Secondor, so the CEO of UTD's podcast, he was telling us, he was interviewing the public safety diver from, this is one like episode two or three, I got bored and had a road trip, so. And he was talking about scuba is the only kind of sport that you have to do in the actual environment.
Kevin (16:52.174)
to where like I'm simulating flying on the ground. I'm not up in the air. So worst case I trip and fall getting out of the simulator. In scuba, you have to be in the water. So even if it's four feet of water, you're still in the environment in which you're gonna do it. So there's a different level of, I wouldn't say risk, but respect that you have to give it. Did that, did well enough. And then they said, hey, you know what? You did well enough.
Jay (17:02.939)
Mm-hmm.
Jay (17:12.044)
Mm-hmm.
Kevin (17:19.917)
to graduate but not well enough to go out to the main fleet. I was like, what does that mean? Basically means that I did well enough to be an instructor. Once again, the Air Force is crazy in their minds and this is the only job in the Air Force where you graduate the program and they say, hey, you're good enough to be an instructor and come back. So normally it's, hey, go out and get experience. Go out, get several thousand hours, go fly some bigger airplanes, go deploy around the world and then come back.
Jay (17:36.655)
Hmm.
Kevin (17:46.798)
So I became what's known as a FAPE, so first assignment instructor pilot, and went back to Columbus for four years and taught. Which is interesting because now I'm on the other side of the table. So all the same mistakes, all the same things that the students are doing that I did, you know, a year prior, I'm now teaching them how not to do. So big responsibility being 22, being in charge of a $7 million asset with a student.
and basically said, hey, go across the country, come back on Sunday with a plane and the, you know, pilot intact. So a lot of response, and then eventually we did two ship formation type stuff. So now I'm taking a brand new instructor, my student and his student cross country and all the perils of, you know, landing at civilian airports and not getting, you know, going to bars and having fun, but being good on the rules and getting training done. So grew up fast.
Jay (18:23.079)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
Kevin (18:44.402)
is what I would say. So tying that back in to SCUBA is, of course, we don't want other agencies, we'll just call it that, have these like 100 hour requirements or 100 dive requirements. And you really look at that and you go, do you really know what you're doing? And in flying, it wasn't until like about a year into my tour that I really started to understand how to be a good instructor. And still, even when I left that assignment after four years,
what it meant to be an instructor, didn't hit home until I became an instructor in the B-52. And it because there's no instructor program, there's no IDC, there's nothing out there that as soon as you graduate, you're the best instructor in the world. I mean, today I was on a chat with James Mott, it's kind of like our instructor next tier up, asking him questions about, hey, my student in the pool was doing this. Can you, here's a video, can you help me out? Because I think it's this, but I'm not quite sure. So,
that whole going to ask for a mentor. All right, so even if you're an instructor, whoo, I got the instructor tab as James liked to say, as you get the jacket with all the patches on it. Ooh, look at this special card. It's like, no, man, you've just begun that journey. There's so much that you don't know that you need to go out, you need to work with people. That's another thing, like we talked about, you're more of an extrovert, I'm an introvert. So it takes a lot for me to come out of my shell to talk to people that love Scuba,
Jay (19:53.886)
Mm-hmm.
Kevin (20:13.722)
I may not love people. So it's a learning thing. It may not be, hey, Kevin's back fin may be great, but Kevin's interpersonal skills need to be worked on. Or how, like Kevin's a very analytical math numbers and I'm dealing with someone that loves to ride horses and thinks on the other side of the brain. How do I relate scuba to that? And that's not in a manual. I mean, there's like, you can talk to people about that, but.
Jay (20:15.44)
Hahaha.
Jay (20:23.577)
Mm-hmm.
Jay (20:31.055)
Mm-hmm.
Kevin (20:36.95)
That's the same thing in flying is that we have these manuals of this is how much PSI, the hydraulic system works, and this is how fast you fly it. And this is the radio call you're going to make. But you get into a situation where you're like, I've tried to teach this person everything I know, and it's just not getting through. And that's when the, you know, the slightly gray haired beard, well, we can't have beards in the air force or flying wise, but the gray haired reservist that flies for the airline part-time who like, you're like, ah, he's a crusty old guy. He doesn't know what he's talking. He goes and flies with a student and he clicks. It's like, yeah.
Jay (20:58.535)
Hehehe
Kevin (21:07.054)
because I got thousands of hours, I've talked to people, I was humble early on, I made mistakes, and I learned from those and passed those on. I think that's the biggest thing, whether it's flying or scuba diving, is finding those good instructors who are always students, who are always learning another level, and trying to expedite the learning process. I mean, if it took James 20 years to be as good of an instructor as he is.
I'm sure he's thinking, Hey man, I'm going to try to give everything that it took me in 20 years to Kevin in five. And then I turn around and go, Hey, you know what? I have a new guy coming up and I'm going to try to instill the 20 years of James's knowledge and the five years of my knowledge and give it to him in three. Now does that happen? Maybe, maybe not. But I mean, that's how, that's how people progress. And especially in flying and scuba. Could you teach yourself? I mean, Orville and Wilbur did. Costo did.
Jay (21:41.081)
Right.
Jay (22:01.032)
Hahaha.
Kevin (22:02.806)
But there's also a lot of airplanes that are in the ground, and a lot of people who didn't make it back. So, best to respect the sport, respect the discipline, and then go seek out those instructors and learn from them.
Jay (22:09.153)
Mm-hmm.
Jay (22:21.116)
Yeah. So there's a lot in there to unpack, which, uh, which I appreciate. I think, um, I think one of the things you said that's super interesting is about going back to, cause you didn't grow up in Louisiana, right? You were, you were, took your, you took your flying else. You know, when you started elsewhere in Maryland. Yeah. So, I mean, you know, when you were starting out, going back to that first takeoff and then the realization, Oh, I actually have to land this thing.
Kevin (22:32.565)
No.
That was Maryland. Yeah.
Jay (22:45.855)
And there's no one here. Like this, this flight's going really well until you look over and go like, Oh yeah, that flight instructor was kind of like a, a safety blanket for me. And my blankies gone, you know? Um, I think it's interesting because, and you also mentioned kind of the, the motory skill piece of, of being a pilot. And I think that's interesting because, um, one of the things that with, with diving in general is that one of the ways that you can think about it is you are at a control panel, right?
Kevin (22:54.282)
Oh yeah.
Jay (23:14.747)
flying a plane or a train, whatever, whichever one works best for your metaphor out there. But yeah, you're out of control, plant panel. And yeah, if you need to reach down and throttle up, for example, I don't know the right terminology, I'm probably gonna make a fool of myself in this podcast, but you need to go faster. I know that's gonna be the net result of it, right? You can't, you know, I'm sure at first you're thinking, where is the throttle? Now I go and do this, right? And then as it progresses now for you, you probably just could...
Kevin (23:29.112)
That's it.
Jay (23:44.215)
You know, you don't even think about it. It's just second nature. And so I think there's a big, big parallel between that. If you think about diving is, you know, the, the control panel is different. It's, it's not a throttle necessarily, but you have a breathing buoyancy up, buoyancy down, right? You have speed up, speed down turn, right? Like, you know, breathing, regulating the breathing in terms of a normal breath versus, you know, I find myself sometimes you get worked up and
Kevin (23:45.737)
Absolutely.
Jay (24:10.775)
You know, I start to read a little harder, right? And then you start to add in other layers where, okay, now I'm checking beyond myself, my team, right? And where do I think my team is at in gas consumption? You start to check the environment and you start out adding other layers like, you know, a rebreather or doubles or, you know, stages or all these other sorts of things, and it's all the same plane. The dashboard of buoyancy, right? Control and speed and positioning and all these things doesn't really change.
but the controls start to get more and more, the farther and farther you kind of, again, I don't wanna use the word progress, but the bigger dives you do.
Kevin (24:48.226)
Well, you can equate it to, you can look at like open water scuba is like flying my Cessna. Very simple plane, we're not going super fast, we're not going super far. It's fun, it's manageable, you can make small mistakes and you'll be fine. And then you upgrade a little bit more and then you're like, hey, I'm doing advanced. Well, that's my multi-engine aircraft. So I got two engines I got to deal with, two tanks I got to consider. I can go farther on gas, but I got to have reserve to land there.
Jay (24:55.073)
Mm-hmm.
Kevin (25:16.822)
You talk about communication. Like you think like, oh, you got radios. Well, now I have two radios. Well, now I have two people talking at me. Which one do I answer first? You know, and then, um, same underwater. It's like, well, we can't talk, but we have hand signals or who's the most compromised diver and how do we communicate it's verbal versus nonverbal. And then you go, okay, well, let me step that up to let's say cave diving. And that's like my intro level military flying where it's high risk. It's expensive. It's fun. Have really cool videos from it.
Jay (25:46.811)
Ha ha ha.
Kevin (25:47.262)
Um, and then you get to a point where, like, you start talking about, Hey, we're doing rebreather dives 300 feet. We're taking cameras. We're going thousands of feet back in a cave. We're at our team. Like we need multiple gases. We need, you know, multiple contingency plans, X, Y, and Z. I mean, that's flying the B-52. I got four other crew members right now. So myself and four other people required to fly it. I got to talk to all of them. Um, two of them are more on the offensive side for dropping weapons. One of them is a defensive.
So there's this never ending battle of defense says, don't fly too close to the enemy. And the guys downstairs say, you have to fly close to the enemy because that's what we're jobs to drop bombs on. And then I'm making the decision while I'll fly in the airplane. And you talk about the stuff being subconscious. At that level, you can't worry about your stick and rudder skills. You can't worry about, oh, this is how I turn the airplane. This is how I climb the airplane or how I make it go fast or slow. Same thing, the guys doing those 300, 400 foot dives, thousand foot cape ends, aren't worried about their buoyancy.
It's just second nature. Now what happens is, and you see this in general aviation, the guys who go too fast too quickly are the ones crashing business jets. You start seeing business jets are very expensive, nice airplanes getting crashed. A lot of it's pilot error because they went too fast and they didn't focus on the basics. So the parallel, that was one of the huge ones. And I was flying with a student last Friday and he was having trouble in the pattern. Now this guy is.
Jay (26:55.173)
Mm-hmm.
Kevin (27:13.278)
spent 200 plus hours in military aircraft flying around the traffic pattern and how to land airplanes. So on that faster speeds than we fly the B-52. But his basics, we call it pitch and power. So you're gonna set a pitch for the airplane and you're gonna set a power setting on the throttles that's gonna give you a corresponding airspeed. Well, that stuff was just straight over his head and.
He's all over the place. We're climbing left and right and he can't even focus on the radio calls. He can't focus on where the runway is, let alone run checklists because he's just chasing the basics. At that point, as an instructor, you go, what do you do? Uh, well, safety of flight first. I have to make sure that, you know, the airplane's not going to crash. So we weren't in that, but at certain points, I had to take the aircraft, set the throttle, set the pitch and go, this is what normal looks like. You have the aircraft. He's then.
Jay (27:46.616)
Hmm.
Kevin (28:01.822)
re-cages and goes, okay, now I can fly. Now, because it's a crew aircraft, I can do some of the checklists and help them out in the background while he focuses on that. So that's like, hey man, your buoyancy is off, I'm gonna set you up, this is right. But meanwhile, I'm checking our depth, I'm checking our time, I'm going up to your SBG and going, yep, you're still good, right? The things that an instructor would do to keep the team safe. And I shouldn't say instructor too, because depending on the skill levels in your team, you could have a brand new person come to your team.
and they're inexperienced and that's cool and your job's to build them up. But you're still like the big brother sort of, hey, okay, let's slow things down for you, let's focus on the basics and I'm going to provide Overwatch. And then eventually on the first pattern, it was, it was bad. I ended up taking the aircraft after we did the touch and go and that kind of stuff. But I freed up, I took the aircraft. So now he's not worried about flying, he's not worried about climbing or crashing into the ground or breaking something, over speeding the flaps.
Jay (28:41.531)
Mm-hmm.
Jay (28:46.011)
Hehehehehehe
Kevin (29:00.506)
And I sit there, so in this one of those things of a mark of a good instructor is you can fly the airplane because all that stuff is in the background and I can talk. So while I'm talking to him, I'm basically play by play what happened on that last pattern, where he went right, where he went wrong. But I'm still flying the airplane in the present to then put it in a good position in the future to then give it back to him and say, okay, everything's good, you're here. So to be able to talk, fly and anticipate stuff, well, that only comes after years of experience.
and practice getting the basics down. I don't have to look where the throttles are. I don't have to know where the airplane is because I've done it so many times that it's there. Same with, hey, go to the pool and practice. I don't have to worry about knowing where all my stuff is because I have hundreds of hours in the pool repping it out. And then I gave it back to the student and the landings got progressively better. So I think good sortie overall.
Jay (29:47.422)
Mm-hmm.
Jay (29:53.623)
Yeah. And I think, I think, um, I think that's a good, a good way to think about it, cause you should drive me nuts. People would say, you know, it's years and years and years. And I, and I always felt like a vanity to me because it's, it's actually, I think what you're really saying is, is it's the level of, of experience in, not only in the pool, but then putting yourself in, you know, like maybe a parallel flying through a storm or high winds or those sorts of things, same thing in different environments that you're in, in scuba.
that build experiences. I saw this post about, you know, number of hours being the recommendation for, you know, becoming a dive master, becoming an instructor, structure trainer, those sorts of things that, you know, it's actually hours under the water rather than number of dives, because dives can be a vanity. You know, I've joked about teabagging here where people, you know, do the 15, yeah, 15, 15 or 20, like 15 minutes, 15, 15 minutes at 15 feet.
Kevin (30:43.342)
20 minutes for 20 feet.
Jay (30:50.423)
and then just do it as many times as you can on a single 80. Um, yeah, that's not experience. You know, you're not gaining much there. Um,
Kevin (30:53.761)
I-I-
I think there's that caveat too, because hours, if you said I have thousands of hours in the same quarry, I mean, that's like saying I have thousands of hours just taking off from my home airfield and flying the right thing. What wasn't brought up was when I was in Maryland getting my flight training, Maryland, Pennsylvania, New York, Delaware, West Virginia, were all places that were in my reach. So every weekend I would be hitting one of those states landing at a different airport.
Back at Columbus when I was at FATE there for four years, Monday through Friday was, yeah, take off, go to the same practice area, come back. But the Saturday, Sunday, we would go cross country. So just about everything in the southeast of the United States was fair game. And then when I was a B-52 aircraft commander, we went out to Guam, we went out to England, we flew all over the country, we went down to South America. So yeah, so it's, yeah, I got 2,500 hours of military flying.
but that's all over the world. Whereas this kid who was in the seat had 200 hours at only his training days. So I think, I don't think you could put a multiplier, like to do that, it would be some super gonked out equation of being like how many hours under the water versus how many destinations and all that stuff. I don't know if you could do that, but then again, I think...
Jay (32:15.617)
Yeah, yeah.
Kevin (32:22.158)
I think there's gotta be a little bit of, it's on the instructor to know when they're ready to become an instructor. Like I, there's a little bit of kick the bird out of the nest and you're gonna sink or swim. Like that happens in any industry where you're like, I got the training, just don't know if this is gonna work. And that's where you have your good mentor to safety net. But at the same time, if you've got people like, hey, why do you wanna be instructor? Because I do it for the chicks, James Ma. No, for the money or, you know, well.
Jay (32:48.103)
For the money, you know.
Kevin (32:50.826)
It's the next thing after dive master. It's like, how many dives after getting dive master did you all one? It's like, eh, okay. We're that's like, you have to want and have a realization of why you want to be an instructor. And that always came down to me is I like flying with good people. Like I get really mad. Kevin, you want to see angry Kevin take any decaffeinated angry Kevin who with a pilot, they can't fly and Kevin starts getting
Jay (33:15.93)
Ha ha.
Kevin (33:18.07)
Because it's like, hey, we're all supposed to be trained to the same level, but come on, man, you need to step your game up. Like this is supposed to be the best Air Force in the world. You know, we can go anywhere in the world and you're just men running the standards. I know standards exist for a reason, but you can do better. And then diving with my friends. Like I videotaped it last time, Christie and I were in Florida, two open water divers drop down. Literally we're walking on the bottom of. This is Vortex kicking up all the silt and sand everywhere.
literally like is a sandstorm. I'm like, we need to do better. Like Kevin could be fine just diving in the caves by himself, diving to a high level, high standard, but man, like there has to be a better way. And people I find right now it's more out of they don't know what they don't know as opposed to malice. But.
Jay (34:06.631)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, I agree with that. Yeah, and I think that kind of goes back to the whole experience question kind of goes back to the idea of a simulator, which by the way, your flight simulators, were they fully like rotate around 360 degrees or was it like an old Mac computer screen?
Kevin (34:24.811)
No.
Kevin (34:28.67)
Yes, yes, they are. Other Air Force assets have nicer simulators. So the unfortunate story of the B-52 is that it has well outlived its useful lifespan and was supposed to be retired in like the 80s. And every five years they go, oh, we'll retire it. So when they say that, they don't add money to any of the programs. And then five years comes and they go, well, we don't have anything better for it, so we're gonna keep it around.
for another five years. And that's how we get to the situation that we were currently in, where we're flying a 60 year old airplane, we are sims are just, you know, not as old. Probably, I mean, probably like the graphics aren't great, man, like Atari level, I mean, and they're behind, but because of current events and stuff going on, the military, the air force is now seeing that
Jay (35:08.027)
Still on a floppy disk?
Jay (35:15.759)
Hehehehe
