Jay (00:01)
Welcome to the dive table. I'm Jay Gardner and with me as always is Ms. Sarah Miller. Sarah, how are you today?
Sarah (00:08)
I'm doing fantastic, feeling great. Excited to talk about some tech diving.
Jay (00:13)
Tech diving, this is going to be a very technical episode. Dad joke pun intended. Ha ha ha.
Sarah (00:20)
That wasn't even a joke. What was that, bro?
Jay (00:24)
In my mind, it was funny. But again, you don't want to journey through my mind of what I think is funny. Because most of the time it's G rated stupid humor, like that one.
Sarah (00:35)
That's great though. I, you know, I like wholesome humor. That's awesome.
Jay (00:40)
Yeah, I have to say I have a coffee cup and a book and whole thing on dad jokes. And it's true. I have some point you just start making lame jokes and that whole, I don't know if you've seen that, I think it's state farm or I don't know, one of the insurance companies that has this whole thing about, you know, you becoming your parents. And it's a whole series. It's hilarious. You know, like, um, but dad jokes at some point.
Sarah (01:03)
Hmm.
Jay (01:08)
to start happening and I don't know why, you know, it's just maybe those synapses. There you go.
Sarah (01:11)
You were destined to be a dad. It just, it happens. You have to make the jokes to make your kids' eyes roll. Like, that's just a requirement of being a parent.
Jay (01:21)
It's true. It's true. Although my daughter came home, my eight year old came home the other day and was like, Hey, dad, knock knock.
Sarah (01:29)
Who's there?
Jay (01:29)
You see Adam.
Sarah (01:32)
Adam who?
Jay (01:34)
Adam all up and you get the score. I was like, wait a minute, that doesn't really work. It doesn't matter if I say Adam who, it's just a play on the word Adam. And she just thought it was hilarious and wanted to tell me how funny her joke was. And so I laughed out of, you know, okay, yeah, it's a funny play on the word, but then I thought about it and these are things you shouldn't think about deeply. Right? Dad jokes are just on the surface. I was like, this doesn't make any sense.
And then she proceeded to go around and tell everybody her, her newfound joke and who knows where she got it, but it's pretty funny.
Sarah (02:08)
Well, she's your kid, so.
Jay (02:10)
Ha ha ha!
Sarah (02:12)
I think it tracks, it tracks. So today, yeah, I'm gonna take it, man. So today we're gonna talk about technical diving, right? And our journeys through different technical courses. We've been going through a series of talking about our experiences. The first episode was talking about our recreational courses, which wild, like Jay has a great story in there if you haven't listened to it.
Jay (02:13)
True. But yeah, this episode, oh.
Sarah (02:40)
And then we did the second episode on dive professionals and how we got to be where we are as instructors. And now we're gonna talk about tech diving. And once again, at least on my side, I did everything wrong. So I wanna share all of the learnings from that and help people to not suffer as much as I did.
Jay (03:04)
I've actually had a great tech diving journey. So, this is where I do not have the, oh my gosh stories, but yeah, maybe we could start off with just talking about how we even got interested because if you're not familiar and you're listening out there, what technical diving is versus recreational diving, right? Recreational diving really is a profile of diving that typically is, I think by standards, 130 feet.
Sarah (03:08)
So happy for you, that's lovely.
Jay (03:34)
by most standards or a hundred feet depending on your agency. And it's a profile where really you can exit the dive at any point by heading to the surface, you know with a slow safe ascent, whether making your safety stop or not, the profile allows you to in an emergency go to the surface for you know more gas or to deal with an equipment failure or
a team, you know, separation, those sorts of things. Technical diving is just a different profile. It's not, you know, about the gear. It's not about all those things, although those things support the profile. Technical diving really says you're now introducing an artificial or a real ceiling or a barrier from you going to the surface in the case of emergency or to deal with, you know, a problem or something like that. So whether that be an artificial ceiling,
Sarah (04:18)
Mm-hmm.
Jay (04:30)
meaning that you have true decompression obligations, meaning if you go up to the surface right now, you risk significantly getting DCS or decompression sickness or lung overexpansion, or you have an actual physical ceiling, like diving in a cave or in a wreck or something like that, that prevents you from even going to the surface at that point. So,
It's just a profile. It's not, you know, a set of gear and all those things. All of the gear and the training and all of that is in support of that profile. Um, but at the end of the day, that's what technical diving is versus recreational diving. So most of you probably already know that, but it's a good explanation to set the stage. Um,
Sarah (05:16)
No, that was really good because a lot of people have in their mind this idea of the tech diver and they have all the gear and tons of stage bottles and it's all very intimidating, right? But you can do technical diving without, I mean, yes, some extra gear is required, but it doesn't have to be this extreme thing, right? I think that...
that's probably a mindset thing that a lot of recreational divers have is just like, oh, that's for the really like the people who have been diving for 10 plus years or whatever. They have hundreds and hundreds of dives. Like it's really more accessible and there are great reasons to go into that kind of diving, which we'll talk more about.
Jay (06:09)
Yeah, so maybe let's set the stage for each one of our journeys around how we got into tech diving and needing tech training in the first place, because, you know, there are a lot of divers that, like you said, you know, you can be a recreational diver. Again, it's just a profile for your whole life. You don't have to, it's not a presumption that as you progress in diving that you need to end up a tech diver. Although I think that presumption may exist out there.
Sarah (06:35)
Mm-hmm.
Jay (06:39)
But unless the type of diving you want to do requires that artificial or real ceiling profile, then it doesn't matter, right? You don't have to progress to tech diving. So how did you, you know, get pulled into wanting to do tech diving, tech training?
Sarah (06:59)
Um, I would say that, uh, getting pulled, I was, I was pushed into tech diving, which is why I, I started this whole thing with the mistakes that I've made. Um, I mentioned my experience with going through the courses before that opportunities have presented themselves, right? And I've just kind of jumped on them as they've come along. And that's exactly what.
happened with Tech 40, 45, and 50. And actually it started with a side mount. So I didn't really have any interest in, like in my head it was just like, okay, you wanna go deeper and stay longer. Cool, but I don't really have an interest in it. Like it just, it didn't call out to me. Like I'm very happy doing recreational dives in the ocean.
Stoked on it, love it, could do it every day, right? But this group, it was an IDC group that I was helping with as an IDC staff instructor. And a big group of them were going through the sidemount and all of the tech courses. And I was just kind of pushed right into the group, like, hey, this is happening, so you should get certified, right? And...
Jay (08:21)
Hahaha
Hmm.
Sarah (08:28)
I have to admit that was, it was the hardest course that I have ever done. Like I've never cried in scuba. I had never cried in scuba until doing those courses. Like I was so frustrated, so frustrated with myself because diving came naturally to me in the beginning, like with regular recreational equipment. But man, getting into sidemount was...
Jay (08:39)
hahahaha
Sarah (08:56)
a disaster. I felt so uncomfortable. It did not feel natural to me. And I didn't get the time in between sidemount course and going into tech 40, 45 and 50. We talked about that almost like integration time in previous episodes of like, yeah, of like sitting and like getting good at the new skills that you've developed because the sidemount course doesn't mean that like, oh, you're an expert at sidemount. It's like, no, you understand.
Jay (08:58)
Mm.
Yeah, the plateaus.
Sarah (09:26)
the skills and the equipment, but now you need to practice, right? I didn't get that practice time. And so I just suffered. I suffered so much through, you know, adding extra stage bottles and practicing deco and then eventually doing deco, which like for me, tech diving and you're talking about these physical or non-physical ceilings, like that is something that...
Jay (09:29)
Yeah.
Sarah (09:54)
is so interesting to face in your own brain of like, especially when you're doing it in open ocean and you're like, I can see the surface, but I can't go there. It's weird. It's a weird experience. And then I'll get more into some other where I had physical ceilings over it, but that I just, I think that as with any of the courses, I wish I had,
Jay (10:04)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Sarah (10:23)
slowed down and taken more time during them.
Jay (10:28)
Yeah, that's a good point. Um, for me, my, my journey there, I think was a little bit different and I blame it on Mexico, but
Sarah (10:38)
I, Mexico.
Jay (10:40)
Yeah, exactly. I mean, I kind of orchestrated early in my diving career. I orchestrated this, call it a scuba diving buffet. That's how I think about it. I want to try a little bit of everything because I don't know what I'm into. And so I want to try a little bit of everything and see. So, you know, the area in Tulum and
Sarah (10:54)
Hmm.
No.
Jay (11:08)
that area, sorry, I'm drawing a blank on the, Porta Adventura, yeah, Riviera Mara, Porta Adventura specifically. It is kind of a scuba diving buffet. I mean, you have reefs, you have drifts, drift diving, you have scientific diving, you have cenotes, which are caverns, some are cavern zones, some you have caves, I mean, you have everything, it's right in there. So I'll show you this trip there.
Sarah (11:10)
the Riviera Maya.
Mm-hmm.
Oh yeah, you have everything.
Jay (11:38)
where I was literally on my own. You know, I was diving through a shop and getting paired up with Insta buddies and all this stuff of just to try a little bit of everything. So do some wreck diving, do some drift diving, do some scientific diving. And one of the flavors that was, you know, offered was a cenote. And I was like, absolutely. Like, yeah, I'm in. And I remember that, that day we, you know, it was totally different than the other days because he showed up the shop that was at the resort I was, I was at. And, um,
Sarah (11:44)
Mm-hmm.
Jay (12:07)
And they're like, Oh, well, follow this guy who's dude, I don't know to his truck. And we're all in the, you know, the loading and unloading zones. And we drove, I don't know, you know, an hour this way and that way. And all of a sudden we ended up on this big dirt road and I'm like, what is going on? Right. And I remember just sticking the GoPro out and it's me, another guy who was from Germany or something and the, the guide, I guess it was, and I had never been in a cavern or a cenote or anything. I had no idea what to expect. And I remember.
Sarah (12:21)
Hehehehe
Jay (12:36)
We drove up to, and the first one we ended up at was, um, L pit, uh, or, or the pit and, um, you know, it's just this, it literally is a pit, like in the middle of the jungle, there's a hole in the ground. No, I mean, it's a big hole, but it's not, you know, it's not as big as you would imagine it's like swimming, swimming pool size, basically. Um, and a staircase that goes down and like off we went. And I remember the, the guide, you know, was inside Mount. I was in a single tank back Mount set up.
Um, I had a, had a wing at this point in the back plate, but you know, it was in a seven foot hose, but I was new to all of this. And I remember going down in that cenote and was just like, Whoa, like, Oh my gosh, I cannot believe how amazing this environment is. And when we finished that dive, we went to another one, which is called dos ojos, two eyes, and there's two lines there, which is a, you know, um,
Sarah (13:14)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, mind blown. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Jay (13:33)
And we ended up on what's called the Barbie line. And it's called that because at the end of the line in this kind of cavern is place, um, cause there are a couple of swim throughs, but technically you can see, you know, there's some technicalities as to what a cavern versus a cave is. But at the end of that line is a Barbie tied to the line, right. That an alligator now is eating. And I remember going through that at the very end of that dive, there was this, let's call it a swim through of a fully.
you know, overhead environment or you're swimming through this place. That's you're in an overhead environment. And I remember getting out of that dive and I actually, that moment being in there going, I want more of this. Like, this is the environment that lights me up. And so that really set me on the path. Right. I mean, I knew that was an environment that really resonated with me for whatever reason that was beautiful, that I thought was fascinating and engaged my mind. But I also knew like.
Sarah (14:15)
Mm-hmm.
Jay (14:32)
I'm not there and there's a path to get here. And so I set that goal after that trip of saying, you know what, I want to be in the caves and so I'm going to do the training that's required in order to get to that point and, and I want to like, make sure I'm good enough to be in that spot. So that's how I got into tech diving. What was simply pulled from an environment that I wanted to be in rather than
as a progression of, you know, I've done everything I can do now, let's do something else. And I have to say it took years, right? It took a couple of years of hard work to get there. And I'm glad it did. And I can talk about, you know, the twists and turns of, you know, wanting to go faster and then knowing I needed to slow down and all these sorts of things. But I'm glad to say today, you know, that journey was well worth it.
Sarah (15:02)
Mm-hmm.
Jay (15:28)
Uh, and obviously that environment still calls to me, sings to me and, you know, I've done Florida now I've done Mexico, uh, can't wait to go explore some of the other cave systems that are around the world, um, but it's still, it still calls to me. It still sings to me when I get into a cave and, and just love that environment. Um, and I also enjoy now the challenges that presents to my brain, to the planning, to constantly being switched on to the team aspects of it.
Sarah (15:51)
Mm-hmm.
Jay (15:56)
to all of that, I really enjoy that as well. And both cave diving and technical profiles that we have to really think through things. So I like that and I like the gear portion of it. But at the end of the day, it was, you know, the siren song of the Cenote that drew me into technical diving and into the path that I've been on for the last few years.
Sarah (16:17)
Yeah, I totally get that. You know, getting that experience, I, like I mentioned, didn't have that drive immediately, right, but I will say that since then, getting more experience and everything, it has been more attractive. And I think it is because I'm actually prepared for it at this point in my career, whereas I wasn't before.
But I will say the final dive of my tech grouping, right? Tech 40, 45, and 50 just went back to back. And the last dive of that did give me that same sensation that you just talked about.
in that I finally felt comfortable. That was the first dive that I felt comfortable in sidemount with a stage. Actually, I might've had, I had two stages for that dive. And then we went to the Cenote, I don't know if you've checked it out, Cenote Zapote, which is north of Playa, it's in, where is that in? Ah.
north of Playa del Carmen. And now I'm blanking. But no, Tulum South. Yeah, yeah. I don't remember, but the listeners will know, I'm sure. It's where the hell's bells are, right? The formations that are inside of the cavern, because it is actually a cavern dive. You can do it as a recreational dive.
Jay (17:42)
Tulum? Tulum, no, before?
Yes.
Sarah (18:08)
these formations that look like bells, they're incredible. They're down at like, I don't remember 100% accuracy. I feel like they're at 32 meters or something. Like they're within recreational limits, right? So you can go and see them, but normally it's a go down, okay, there they are. Now you gotta go back up. And there's like nothing to really see in between the bells and the surface, right? So.
That was an incredible experience because we got to go into Deco and really explore everything at that depth and then, you know, just hang out for a long time, going up, doing our Deco stops, switching gases, doing all of those things. That was where I felt that, that feeling that you just explained, where it's like, oh, I get why people want to do this.
I just didn't ever have it as a recreational diver. I meet recreational divers. I think of one specifically, Andrew who lives in Seattle. He is just on a mission to do specific dives. He has it in his brain, that's what I wanna do. I wanna go do these wrecks so I need to get these things. Kind of like what you've talked about with your planning and dive career.
And I just never had that. I think I've just always kind of been hanging out, like I'm here for a good time, like whatever. But I understand it now, you know? And I was living in Playa del Carmen when I decided to pursue being a scuba instructor and something that everybody does when you live there long enough, it's like, okay, you gotta do the cave course, right? And...
Jay (19:34)
Hahaha.
Sarah (20:00)
Again, I got to, I had the opportunity to do a course with people and I probably did it too soon, just like everything in my dive career. But at least at that point, I felt a little bit more comfortable in sidemount and like, you know, found my buoyancy and everything. And that was like a whole other thing because with tech diving, you have those invisible ceilings.
Right? Like usually. Then with cave, like the mindset that I had to work on to be okay and stay relaxed when like, I knew that the surface was an hour away. Like, you know, my brain sometimes I would get into a place and be like, oh God, stress is increasing a little bit. I need to focus on my breath.
Jay (20:43)
Mm-hmm. Hmm.
hehe
Sarah (20:55)
and remind myself that it's okay. We've done our dive planning, like everything's okay. But it's definitely an interesting mindset, cave diving.
Jay (21:07)
Yeah, yeah, it is. It's so interesting to me to hear that because again, I might be lucky or I might be naive or whatever words you want to use in that, but being engaged so early in, in that environment, calling to me kind of gave me the mindset through all of my training, both recreational and so on and so forth, everything I've done to, to be kind of a looked at it always as adding skills to the backpack.
Sarah (21:36)
Mm-hmm.
Jay (21:36)
of getting in the cave, right? So like if I'm gonna learn sidemount, which I did, and tech sidemount and DIR sidemount and all the other ways that sidemount happens, right? If I'm gonna learn that, it's a tool for when I need that tool passing through a restriction that is necessary to have sidemount, right? That I can't pass on back mount or whatever. Doing a recreational course on, I remember my first dry suit course, it was like,
We got told how to vent gas in an emergency, which was not to make fun, but was essentially I call it the starfish. Spread all your limbs out and look like a starfish or do a barrel roll, frontwards or backwards. These are skills I had to try. My question there, again, as a very young diver was, what happens if you're in a cave and this happens?
Sarah (22:11)
Mm-hmm.
Jay (22:31)
And, you know, at the time, the instructor, obviously that wasn't, it wasn't a cave dry suit course. I don't think there's such a thing. But the instructor, I answer honestly, I don't know. You know, like this is just what the standards say. So I had to kind of go on a journey to figure out how do you vent gas in an emergency with restrictions, you know, and those things, because I was already thinking about that because I knew that was calling to me. I knew that's where I wanted to be. So it's interesting. So I feel lucky in the sense that.
For me, my cave training and being in a cave was like the most comfortable and I would say easiest training I've had compared to all the other training that I had taken, like to get up there, which is crazy. Like most people don't have the experience. My cave class and we was like smooth sailing, you know, sure we made some, you know, mental blunders here and there. But
you know, got trapped with the blackout mask on where it was like, ooh, I don't know exactly what this is. You know, like, oh, you know, and like, you felt a little bit of that panic, but you also knew we're out. We're just not out, out. And, you know, it's, I know we're out because we just went down our line that we laid in, you know. So anyway, for me, it's interesting because when I talk about TechTrain Cave,
Sarah (23:35)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Jay (23:59)
being in a cave, like I'm calm, I'm okay. And it's not to say I'm such a great cave diver. It's just to say that it was the payoff of all of the other really hard stuff where I was completely uncomfortable or I was ready to sell all my gear after a dive or two or, and those things. And of course the cave is still challenging. And it's an environment that you need to be switched on, that you need to be completely aware. There is no, take a break mentally.
Um, and you have to trust the team that you're with, right? And so you don't go cave diving with who, just whoever you, you really need to build that trust. So it's not to take it lightly by any means, and I don't take it lightly by any means, but I'll say it's very comfortable compared to a lot of the other training that I'd gone through to get there. Um, which I can talk about as I go, but yeah.
Sarah (24:32)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, that's really interesting, because I feel like it's very common. Like we're spanning the two camps for people, because I find that it's either like you're gung-ho, like this is my jam, like I want to be in all the caves always forever, or you're kind of like, eh, okay. And I don't know, not to say that I'm like, eh, okay. Like I think it's fascinating.
But like I did the training originally because it offered, to be totally honest, it offered more opportunities for work and working as a dive guide in Playa del Carmen. And I was working as a freelancer. And so I was like, I should do this. It expands my ability to make money, right? But.
Yeah, there's something about the formations and the history and going somewhere that not everybody gets to go. I have had the most incredible dives in the Riviera Maya where like one time, I don't remember the specifics about how we found out about it, but there were like these really old bones in one of the cave systems and a museum was coming in soon to like remove them, right?
So we had found out from this person who told that person, who told that person like where they were. And so we went and like saw them before they got removed. And like incredible, absolutely incredible. Cause it's, you know, the cave systems, people are like, well, that's so weird. Like why would bones from a land animal be there underwater? It's like, because they were dry. Like these things have been, like this is serious history.
Jay (26:27)
Amazing
Right.
Sarah (26:47)
It's incredible. Obviously I get fired up talking about it, but there's still, I still would rather hang out with an octopus man. Like, that's just my kind of diving. It's not to say that I don't want to pursue it because I think it's really helpful for me as a professional, as a diver to work on my skills. But if...
I have a choice, like I'm probably gonna choose some kind of ocean diving. But just recently I've been refreshing those skills because ever since I left Pallidal Carmen, I really have not used any, like, okay, I've done maybe a handful of technical dives since then. And that was, I don't know, six years ago, seven years ago. So like just recently I'm in the...
Los Cabos area of Baja, right? And I've gotten the opportunity to shoot content for a tech course. So I've gotten to listen to all of the theory again, go through all of the dive planning again, watch people, and this course was in doubles back mount, watch people struggle through the skills. I've never done doubles back mount. So that's like a totally new thing for me that maybe one day I'll try.
I, but yeah, but getting like that exposure and that refresh of the skills and the tools and everything, I don't see why I wouldn't want to do something like that. Right? Like it's only helpful to have that. And so that's kind of this year, 2024 has kind of been my goal of like refreshing those skills. So I'm actually heading to the Riviera Maya.
Jay (28:15)
Heck yeah.
Sarah (28:43)
at the end of the month and I'm taking a cave refresher. And yeah, it's gonna be great. But I think that's kind of the whole point is like to keep growing as a diver.
Jay (28:48)
Nice.
Yep. And I think it's important to point out here too, that you are a certified cave diver with some experience in caving or cave diving. And I think it's really cool that you're taking a refresher course first. And I think that's again, technical diving, you know, I think that, how do I say this in a good way, but I think there.
Sarah (29:08)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
100%.
Jay (29:27)
there can be a reputation and there are those that I certainly have run into that further this reputation of tech divers as very egotistical, very looking down on other types and styles of diving, you know, very ego led. And I think, I don't know what drives that. I mean, you can speculate all day, but I think the tech divers that I dive with and that, that I...
Sarah (29:35)
Yes.
Jay (29:57)
hope I am are consistently humble about it and not humble in like, oh yeah, whatever I'm but humble in the sense that we know what we don't know. And we respect, I respect the heck out of a cave or a wreck or just a longer decodive because of the risk that I'm taking on. It's not, oh, I got this. It's
Sarah (30:09)
Yeah.
Jay (30:24)
I need to prepare and plan and I need to be switched on and I need to, you know, I probably get more lazy sometimes on a recreational dive with that than I would ever get with a technical dive or maybe more, you know, in that sense. And hopefully I'm never lazy. I'm always switched on, but certainly like, I think that real tech diving. In my opinion is the best way to put it requires that humility.
And knowing, like I've said before on this, on the show, that when you're sitting on that high horse, you know, that's the dangerous spot to be because that's when scuba is going to knock you off, right? And you, and you know, the, I just know that it's coming. So for me, as a, as a technical diver, I don't frown upon anyone else's diving. The only type of diving I ever frown upon is when, you know, I see someone either putting themselves at risk, um, or others at risk, you know, and, and that's regardless of profile.
Sarah (31:02)
Yeah.
Jay (31:21)
Right. It could be whatever, or certain things that I see. And I go, well, I thought like bungees on a, on a wing, or as a great example. Like for me, I see that on a dive boat and I want to, I never do, but I want to go up and say, I like, you know, like think about, think this through. Like I did think it through, like what happens if you get a puncture in your wing, which is a most likely wing failure. Um, that bungee is going to compress all of that gas.
out of the wing. So you completely lose the wing versus with no bungees, I can still trap gas either, you know, break trim and trap gas somewhere. And at least I still have some function of the wing and the bungee is not really getting me any advantage. It's actually causing a disadvantage in the case of an emergency. But of course, that's not my place to walk on a dive boat and say, look at that guy's gear, blah, blah. And I think that's the reputation that some people have about tech diving.
And I think that's unfortunate because for me, I take the stance that I will answer any question that someone asks me. And if someone's genuinely open to wanting to hear what I have to say about something, I'll say it, but unless you're a student of mine, I have no right telling you how you should dive or telling you that you're doing it wrong. It works for you and maybe you've thought this through and you're accepting that risk in that way. And you see the benefits in a different way than I do. And.
Sarah (32:39)
Yeah.
Jay (32:48)
We don't need to sit there and, you know, debate about it. Um, but I guess I'm trying to drive home the point that I think real technical diving requires humility and at least the dives I've been on. And I think if you, if you're leading with, or you're thinking that, you know, I'm a tech diver, I've arrived and that ego starts to come out. I think that's a very dangerous place to be. Um, because that
that ocean, that dive, that profile, that cave, will, without due respect, and will show that ego what reality is very quickly. So anyway, it's a word of caution, at least that's a lesson learned for me, is I don't walk around. The old joke is, how do you know someone's a technical diver? It's because they'll tell you. I try not to walk around and say, yo, look at me, I'm a tech diver, I'm a blah, blah. I'm a diver, I love to be in the ocean. I don't care. I love to be in the water.
Sarah (33:26)
Mm-hmm.
Hehehe
Jay (33:46)
Right. I don't, I love being in the cave for sure, but that's not it for me. You know, the only diving I'll do. Um, and then, yeah, depending on the profile of the dive, then I hope I, um, have trained to a point that I can do that dive. Like I have dives in my mind that I'm like, I want to do that dive that require more training for me right now than where I'm at. So I know I can't go do that dive. And so there are things that I have in mind that I want to do in order to do.
Like the one that's coming to my mind right now is the Big O, the Ariskeny off Pensacola. Florida is a huge aircraft carrier that was sunk intentionally. It's a huge reef now system. And there's lots of different profiles of that dive from the tower to the props. Right. It's a big ship. And for me, there's an aircraft carrier here in San Diego called the Midway, which was
Sarah (34:21)
Hmm.
Jay (34:45)
It's a museum now, so you can walk through it and all this. I remember walking through the hangar bay of the Midway, which is just an incredible place to be. This is a cool place. I'm going, I just can't imagine swimming through this. Oh my gosh. Then I was like, okay, swimming through the hangar bay on the Big O is a gold eye for me.
Sarah (35:11)
Hmm.
Jay (35:12)
And that requires a bunch of different things. It's not just, Hey, let's go get on the boat. It requires a bunch of different training because it's deep and it's overhead. And, you know, it's, you're, you're very gas limited at that point. So do you, to do that dive and to do it well, I think, uh, you know, to really enjoy it in the way I want to requires a rebreather. So it's like all these different things that get into place that like, okay, like that's a good dive that in the next couple of years I want to be able to do, but I'm not there yet.
Sarah (35:34)
Yeah.
Jay (35:42)
Anyways, I've rambled on. Big point is.
Sarah (35:42)
Yeah.
You've touched on a lot of things.
Jay (35:48)
I did, I did. I'm very passionate about technical diving and the reputation that it has. And of course, I'm not going to change it alone, but I hope that reputation isn't, you know, propagated forward for those that are thinking about being a diver.
Sarah (35:52)
I love it.
Yeah. I mean, I would say that my lack of interest and not to say again, I've been on this journey of like refreshing my skills and getting into this stuff more this year, but I will say that my lack of interest for a big part of my diving career has been the people. And that's unfortunate. There's also a part of me that's like, why do I wanna take on
more risk and whatever, but like a lot of it is not wanting to hang out with those people. And you know, you said that joke. No, no. See, I'm seeing things change. I think that's why I'm more open to it. But like you say that joke about, you know, how do you know a tech diver they'll tell you, whatever. Like there was a joke when I was in Platt El Carmen
Jay (36:42)
Yeah, totally. With me. Right, right.
Sarah (37:04)
like the cave divers in the group. And they're the ones with the biggest, loudest laughs at the bar. Like they're just very self-important and like wanna bring all attention to them. And it's, I don't know, it's just something that I was never even like working in it, which I didn't actually work as a cave or a cavern guide for very long. But it just didn't, I don't know, it didn't draw me in.
Jay (37:10)
Mmm.
Sarah (37:32)
Whereas recreational divers, I could find my people a little bit more easily. And I always say my people, it's just people that like wanna have fun and don't take themselves too seriously, but like still are safe, right? They're still safe. They still, they respect and love the environment and wanna help the environment. I don't know, there's a lot of like these...
Jay (37:50)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah (38:00)
the people, the type of people that have this drive to like do the deepest dive or like these big bucket lists, not saying that having a bucket list isn't, like this doesn't, if you have a bucket list that doesn't make you one of these people, I just wanna like make that distinction. But, but I feel like that chasing, that goal chasing is just, it's that ego, the ego comes out and it's,
Jay (38:19)
Alright.
Sarah (38:29)
I don't know, it's something that I just don't, I don't understand. Like I watch some of these, you know, to get outside of tech diving, like the free divers, the free divers that do that, I think it's called variable weight where they go down on the sled and then they come up with the like parachute or whatever it is that they call that. It just, it feels like a chasing, like an ego thing of like,
I want to be the deepest person. I want to push all the boundaries and explode whatever perception we had of what the human body could do. I don't know, I just don't understand that fascination. I'll never be one of those explorers. It's just not in my personality. I guess we need people like that because otherwise we wouldn't know a lot of the stuff that we know these days.
So I'm all over the place with my commentary on that, obviously, but it's just like, I guess it's good that they exist in some sense, but I don't wanna like hang out with them. I don't know.
Jay (39:29)
Ha ha ha!
Yeah. No. And it's a really interesting conversation. And maybe we should do a whole series on this because we could spend another, at least I could spend another three hours just talking about this, but maybe it's helpful in my mind or what's been helpful in my mind. I think that there is ego, which is when you're driven to do a big dive. I mean, I don't know if this is a family show, but we always joke about like, you know, the
the big dick dive stories, you know, like all these guys, like you say, the loud, the loud one on the, at the bar. And honestly, those are the ones when you get on the dive boat that have the, you know, the big swinging whatever, you know, person, um, stories that I'm weary of, right? I'm leery of, I should say. And, and I think that there's ego driven to be able to say,
on that or to place yourself above somebody else. And I think that there are a lot of, I think people that get into tech diving, maybe because they see it as the progression and then they want, I mean, it's normal stuff, right? I'm comparing myself to you and that makes me feel better. Unless I compare myself to that other guy, then I feel worse. So it's a lot of this like finding your place in the world that the ego is trying to make sense of how you.
exist in this pecking order and that's been made up in your mind. Right. And I think supported by some of the way that we present training and some of the way that we present, um, you know, progression in, in Scuba and those things, I think there's also another side that, that I think I may fall into, which is the exploration or the like, like I geek out about an awesome Ascent profile.
regardless of the depth we went to. Like when we break from holding our 20 foot stop and go up to 18 feet and we sit there on our computers and look at, okay, here's the profile. Ah, we broke like for 30 seconds, we were out 18 feet. Like what the heck were we doing? I geek out about that. And that's not like me going, look at me and how great I am. It's me going, I wanna push myself.
to be better and I want to push myself because I know that control or I know that precision or I know that planning is going to open up more exploration opportunities for me, more things I can see. So again, it may be a nuance, but I think there are a lot of divers that I know that are pushing themselves and their limits as a, as a personal.
challenge to get better. And the payoff is I get to see like the payoff for me at some point is going to be I have to swim through the hangar bay of the Eriskei. It's not the payoff is I get to go tell people I swam through that and how cool I am, right? There are different motivations. So I mean, I get what you're saying. And I think that there's definitely a large group of folks, unfortunately, that are about finding their ego's place in the diving, pecking order.
Sarah (42:33)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Right. Yeah.
Jay (42:59)
And that means shitting on other people. And I think that's unfortunate. I also think there's a tranche of people, and maybe this is where you say it's changing, that are doing that type of diving because that environment lights them up and they want to push themselves to be able to extend what they're capable of doing and seeing and enjoying, not just what they're capable of bragging about at the bar. And I think that's a big difference.
Sarah (43:03)
Yeah.
Yeah. 100%. Yeah. I completely agree. And that's where my brain is moving into more technical diving right now. Like you said, I fully recognize I am not, like in any way, an experienced tech or cave diver. Like I definitely am looking forward to, especially in Play cuz I haven't been there in so long
diving with some of my friends that I haven't seen in that amount of time and learning from them because they've been there teaching this whole time like they're extraordinary you know I'm really excited about that and I think it will only help me to be able to teach and guide others better you know because I had a specific experience with my tech and cave courses
that wasn't necessarily positive. It also wasn't totally negative, but I wanna have more time with these things and to learn different teaching styles. And I mean, who knows? People would keep asking me like, oh, are you gonna go that route? Do you wanna teach tech diving? I'm like, no. Like if I'm totally honest, I don't. Like this is definitely a for me thing at this point in time.
Jay (44:45)
Mmm.
