Sarah (44:51)
But I also recognize that life changes so fast. And like, if you had asked me what I was gonna be doing three years ago or four years ago, like doing what I'm doing right now wasn't even on the radar, right? So like, I don't know, maybe I will get that light and be like, oh my gosh, I want to teach this kind of stuff and I'll go for it.
but I will definitely be taking my advice from now on and not moving too fast through anything that I do. Yeah, it's top priority for me, like especially living in the van and having this lifestyle. It's like, oh my God, Sarah, slow the F down. Like, and that was a theme for these students in this tech course. They were just doing tech 40, which is great, but the instructor,
Jay (45:21)
That movie too fast.
Ha ha.
Sarah (45:44)
Great, fabulous instructor in La Paz, Luke Inman. He's with the dive gurus, and he owns the dive gurus, I should say. And that was his thing, like the whole time, you guys need to slow down. Like even just within the course, in the skills, like just slow down, right? So I, yeah, I think that it's gonna help me.
Jay (46:06)
Yeah.
Sarah (46:12)
in a lot of ways and I hope to share that. Like I'm gonna be recording it obviously for my YouTube channel, Asul Unlimited, and sharing that because I think a lot of people are interested but they might also be intimidated like I have been in the past.
Jay (46:29)
Yeah. And I think we've done a good job exploring tech diving from lots of angles and the mindsets and the, but, but to your point, this maybe is a good transition point around the training. And, and, um, you know, in thinking about this episode, I was trying to kind of coalesce together some ideas of like, not just the path that I took, but like, what were the things that, that really surprised me and that took time for me to slow down, like you're saying, like to be slower, to be
Sarah (46:40)
Mm-hmm.
Mm.
Jay (46:59)
more intentional about. And, and for me, my list, you know, at the top of my list is, I think the biggest thing that I'm thankful for in my technical training, because my technical training started out with, you know, there's a, there's a pathway and, and really you're, you're faced with this decision around, I think two things. One is one pathway is learning from multiple, let's say instructors.
that are around your particular goal. So for example, that would have been me going down a route of training in Mexico to be in the caves, right? The, and learning from the divers that are diving, like you say, those caves every day and, and that's one path. The other path that I was faced with was finding a diver, an instructor who I respected the heck out of.
Sarah (47:41)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Jay (47:58)
and basically going down the apprenticing route with that particular person. And I tried both at first because I think they were both viable pathways. And for me, what I ended up going down the path of was looking at an instructor that I respected the heck out of the diving that he had done and that I could learn from and that our learning, my learning style mesh with his teaching style really well.
Sarah (48:28)
Hmm.
Jay (48:28)
Um, and following that path and, and I'm thankful for that because it really did just by sake of logistics and I couldn't just, you know, show up at his shop, quote unquote, and take a class. It slowed things down for me. And that was good. Um, but for me, the biggest takeaways from my training in tech, and you kind of go down this path of, of learning where you're layering on things that you've built
prior course that you should have from a personal skill standpoint, you're then taxing that with critical skills and team skills. It's the pathway that, that UTD took me through. And the biggest learning I took away, number one was that training is about the brain first and foremost. And that was something that I didn't expect because you spent a lot of time training in, and I think the recreational world around your personal skills, like your personal control.
Sarah (49:16)
Mm-hmm.
Jay (49:29)
Um, and yes, there's some, some dive theory. Yes, there's some, you know, planning and those things that, that good recreational courses will teach you. But all of a sudden, when you went into the technical side, everyone had those skills. If you were training personal skills at that point, it was a waste of your time and money because that wasn't what the course was designed to do was teach you how to, you know, carry a stage bottle. It was teaching you how to critically approach and think about
the dive in that way, right? In, in with the requirements of that dive, the overhead or the, whatever it might be that I've had and how you solve problems as a team using your brain, engaging your brain. And so I remember asking an instructor of mine, this is a different, um, UTD instructor, you know, Hey, halfway through the course or whatever of, I think my tech one course, like, Hey, how am I doing, you know, how's it going?
so far. I said, look, the skills are all there. It's up here now. Like it's all up here. Like, you know, you've got to, you got to train the brain. Yeah. And you got to use that as the same muscle as you, you know, are training, you know, a back kick. You've got to train your brain. And, and I remember that just kind of being this like, yeah, this is, this is about the mental game. Well, much more than it is about looking pretty and trim or, or
Sarah (50:33)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's all a mental game. Totally.
Mm-hmm.
Jay (50:57)
you know, following the exact right protocol of X gas switch or whatever. I mean, yes, those are important, but not as important as understanding why the protocol is what the protocol is. Right. Um, so anyway, that was my first big one takeaway from my training was that the technical was, you know, really having to be locked in on the mental side and needing time to exercise my brain muscle.
to go do those dives and go, oh yeah, like there's a high, you know, wind and chop going on the surface right now and next to the boat. The protocol is, you know, shoot your SMB from the first stop. If I do that right now, I'm going to get pulled off course or I'm going to be fighting this thing the whole time. Maybe we should hold off and do it at the 20 foot stop. Yeah, we won't let the boat know early that we're coming up.
Sarah (51:26)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Jay (51:54)
but we'll let them know with enough time because we've got a 10 minute stop, 20 foot stop anyway, so they're plenty of time to see us. It's that thinking, right, that need to be engaged.
Sarah (52:00)
Right. It's yeah, it's all about, totally. It's all about critical thinking at that point. Like, I mean, we should be critically thinking throughout all of our courses, but it's definitely the most important when you're getting into that tax loading or task loading environment. We had a similar discussion with the students who were taking this course in La Paz.
because we did the graduation dive out at Los Islotes, which is where the sea lion colony is. That's like the most playful sea lion colony in the entire world. Like I've never seen anything like it. And the instructor was asking the students like, well, what do you think about our protocols that we've been doing? Cause we've kind of been teaching like a standard, standard protocol and we're talking through the end of the dive.
And they were, the students were talking like, okay, yeah, and then we're gonna shoot up the SMB at this point and blah, blah. And Luke was like, well, pause. Think about where we're going. And they're like, the sea lion colony. And the instructor was like, what do you think is gonna happen with your SMB at a sea lion colony? With a sea lion colony that is so, so playful. They are going to mess with it.
Jay (53:15)
Hehehehe
Sarah (53:20)
they're going to pull it and I mean, they're all over those things. Anytime there's a rope or whatever, they're biting it, they're grabbing it. And those teeth are sharp. I don't know if you like, oh my gosh, they're very sharp and a little S&B line, like who knows what could happen. So it was about getting them in that mind state of like thinking all the way through the dive and the real conditions of the dive site and making decisions as a team.
Jay (53:30)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah (53:50)
Right? I think one thing that you mentioned, you said that individual skills are not as, or you shouldn't be as focused. I mean, I think there's still room for that, right? Because like for these guys, they did an intro to tech and then tech 40, they had never been in doubles before. So there are a lot of individual skills that can...
that need to be developed in certain places. Maybe when you did your course, you had already been in doubles before. But I just wanted to like place that because a lot of times people don't have exposure to that equipment until they're in the tech world, right? So I did just wanna like place that because both of these students were brand new to doubles. And it was amazing like to watch them.
Jay (54:35)
Yeah.
Sarah (54:45)
progress just in that short amount of time. Because I know that I definitely needed more time learning sidemount versus like what I saw them with doubles back mount. I was like, wow, they really took to that. I mean, maybe I would be a total disaster in doubles regardless, you know, because I'm just like, you know, maybe, who knows, I'll accept that if that's the case. Like I don't care, you know, but yeah.
Jay (55:02)
now.
Sarah (55:12)
just wanted to place that there in case people were like, oh, well maybe I need to get a set of doubles to be able to do this. Like that's not necessarily the case, right? Like you can do an intro to tech or, you know, go into the course and that will be part of your training.
Jay (55:30)
Yeah. And, you know, to maybe, maybe expand on that a little bit too. And this is kind of where that slowing down portion comes in is, you know, oftentimes you, you it's like drinking from a water, uh, you know, not fountain, but you know, hydrant and yeah, you know, fire there it is. Water comes out of the fire hydrant. There we go. There's my brain working. Um, and, and I think again, you know, some of that.
Sarah (55:45)
Fire hydrant, yeah.
Yeah
Jay (55:58)
like you say, can be circumstantial and like I have this finite amount of time that I need to take these courses in and things like that. But I think my thought is more along the lines of again, my journey and I was lucky in the sense or maybe not lucky, I don't know however you want to spin it, that I had time in doubles to get comfortable in doubles before I went and added a decompression obligation.
Sarah (56:28)
Mm-hmm.
Jay (56:28)
Right. Or before I added, you know, a stage or a deco bottle. And so I think that there's something to be said about that, um, that progressive version of, of the training that, okay, all of a sudden doubles wasn't enough gas. Now, when you get into that situation, you're doing a big dive, right? Cause it's a, or a big dive, meaning either very long or very deep.
Sarah (56:54)
Mm-hmm.
Jay (56:58)
because it's a lot of gas you have in a set of doubles. And so again, then you go, okay, do I need to do stage? Right, because already now I need to add a stage into this mix. And so again, I always feel like a good pathway for people to think about is that the next level of training is the step beyond what you can do right now.
Sarah (57:01)
Mm-hmm
Jay (57:27)
rather than the fire hydrant. And again, I'm not judging people that take a fire hydrant course, because it's again, circumstantial, all sorts of things. I'm just saying the quality of your education, because there is a growth, a time period, I don't know how long, but that your brain has to rewire, your body has to rewire a bit, that giving yourself the space to acclimate and enjoy that plateau.
and get the most out of it before you add the next thing, I think is really valuable. And I think we go too fast in training and we go too fast in, in trying to get, you know, call yourself a cave diver that it can really hurt you in the long run.
Sarah (58:07)
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, I totally, we've discussed this, like we're on the same page with this. I think I just wanted to bring it up for specifically for doubles back mount because they are less accessible than side mount is. Like that's the only reason why I say that because it's, you know, someone's not gonna go and buy a set of doubles and the back plate and the wing and everything without.
having some kind of experience with it before. I mean, maybe they do. I don't know. But that might be like an intro to tech or a tech 40 course might be the way to try it and to not, you know, it's still, I think people think this is obviously I'm talking from a PADI side, right? Tech 40 is PADI. They think that that's like,
Like it's very, it's the beginning. It's the beginning of tech diving. So yes, there are lots of skills and everything, but I don't think it's inappropriate for people who want to try doubles to sign up for a Tech 40 class. I don't recommend that they go through Tech 40, 45, and 50 like I did, but I don't think it's inappropriate for people to try doubles with a Tech 40 class. I think that that's okay if you're a strong diver.
that is, at least from what I've seen, it seems like doubles is more forgiving than sidemount can be. So I just, I wanted to say that because with sidemount, you know, you can get the harness and grab whatever tanks and go for it. Try it out, work on your skills. But with doubles, it's just, it's a very specific niche piece of equipment.
Jay (1:00:07)
Sure. Yeah. And maybe, maybe it's a nomenclature thing because for us, we, at UTD, at least, we call it essentials of tech, which is looking at personal skills in doubles with a single deco or a stage bottle that's filled with air. So we're not, we're not giving you oxygen on your essentials of tech. So again, there's an essentials of recreational diving, which doesn't include the doubles or the
Sarah (1:00:15)
Mm.
Right.
Jay (1:00:36)
stage or deco bottle. And then to get the tech endorsement includes the stage and obviously doubles. And we want to look at valve drills and gas switches for those things, because those are personal skills. At some level, they're personal protocols and then they become team skills further. So that's kind of a prerequisite in a lot of ways to then going into what we call
Sarah (1:00:55)
Mm-hmm.
That's it.
Jay (1:01:05)
know, 2525 helium or try mix. So it's maybe a nomenclature thing, but I think the point being, because for doubles, I mean doubles, again, I don't want to sound callous, but yes, there are differences. But as a strong diver, you know, I think the biggest difference I got into with doubles was I had this wing that was given to me that was a horseshoe wing.
And I remember my first few doubles dives, I just, you know, why am I constantly being pulled this way? My first one, I was like, you had to figure out how to move the bubble around in that wing because it could get trapped on one side of the other. And then you're swimming, you know, with your right side up and your left side down and go, what is going on? I remember just going like, what is, oh, there's a bubble back. Oh, oh no, the other way. And learning how to like move gas around in the wing was, you know, totally different. But, and then, you know, reaching your valves and a good instructor is, you know, going to show you how to do that. And.
Sarah (1:01:34)
Mm-hmm.
Jay (1:02:04)
and those things, but you know, uh, the, this is why for me and my training path, I, I wanted to find a scalable platform to build from all the way from singles to rebreather, you know, and I think it's rare to find that, but I was lucky enough to find that scalable platform because then when I'm learning something new,
Sarah (1:02:24)
Mm-hmm.
Jay (1:02:33)
I'm not relearning everything else at the same time. And, and I can focus on that new thing. And then I, when I feel like I have that, I've plateaued on that. I can move to the next thing because the type of diving I want to do requires it. And doubles is a great example because look doubles can be extremely useful in a recreational profile. Absolutely. Right. Um, you know, if you look at a single tank, aluminum 80,
Sarah (1:02:36)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Jay (1:03:03)
to 100 feet, which, you know, in our, in our standards, that's our recreational max. You don't get much time, you certainly are going to run out of gas before you hit NDL. Right. So in that kind of dive, then you need more gas. So then you say, okay, it's single backmount plus a stage. Cool. Right. But I need to train on how to do a gas switch on a stage. Or is it doubles? Right, because I'm taking another whole tank of gas with me.
Well, now I need to learn how to deal with failures on a double because it's different than failure on a single, but I'm still in a recreational profile. So if I planned it right, I have enough gas to share with my teammate and we can go straight up. Then you go into the technical world of like, okay, now I can't go straight up. So do we have enough gas to exit the dive as a team and that requires different right thing. Anyway, you walk it through, but the point being is that
Sarah (1:03:38)
Mm-hmm.
Jay (1:04:01)
the progressive nature of trying not to put yourself in a position where you're drinking from a fire hose for three or four days and then off you go, I think is a valuable position for you to try and put yourself in if it's possible.
Sarah (1:04:13)
Yeah.
Totally. Yeah, I had a flash of a question that I was asked recently. So I thought that we could maybe wrap up this conversation with it. Because I am so, I'm known for side-mount diving, right? People ask me, like, should I go side-mount or double tank, you know, back-mount for technical diving? And...
I think it's a really good question. And I always go back to, well, what are you trying to do? Right? Like there is a better tool for specific jobs. Right? Like I always talk about with recreational diving. I share a lot on my YouTube channel of the shore diving that I'm doing. And a lot of times, like it's ridiculous that I'm doing it in sidemount.
Absolutely ridiculous, right? Like some of the dives in Monterey, no, I should not be using SideMount as the tool, but it's what I have and that's what I'm working with. So there you go. But for technical diving, what I told this person is, because their concern was carrying the extra bottles, right? And I told them, you know, for me personally, having four on SideMount,
Jay (1:05:13)
Exactly.
Sarah (1:05:43)
felt very manageable towards, you know, obviously the end of my course when I told you about that time feeling, finally feeling okay. And it was with four tanks. And I was like, okay, that's cool. Now, if I wanted to up that number of gas, you know, of bottles with me, I probably would switch to back mount just because it puts that
Jay (1:05:52)
Right.
Sarah (1:06:09)
gas there and then you're focused on stage bottles at your sides. So I'd love to hear like if you agree with that. Obviously if we're talking like restrictions and going into caves you've already mentioned you know sometimes you need side mount to get through certain restrictions if you're going into really tight squeezes you can even take off your tanks and you know wiggle them through. I've never done anything that tight before that kind of freaks me out.
Who knows what kind of trouble, yeah, who knows what kind of trouble I'll get into when I go to Playa this time? My friends, we'll see. I'm excited for the ride. So there are specific tools that are better suited for the job. And that's sort of my mindset. If I'm going for, obviously I'm a side mount diver, so I'm going to lean towards side mount.
Jay (1:06:38)
The no mounting.
Sarah (1:07:04)
But if I were to go into more advanced things where I'm taking more than four bottles, I would make the switch. And then depending on conditions as well, if it doesn't make sense to be inside mount, it's more comfortable to be in back mount than I would do that.
Jay (1:07:19)
Yeah. No, I think, I think the key word that you're using there that I am in full alignment with is, is tool. And I think sometimes, uh, you know, the debate between side mountain, back mountain doubles versus rebreather. You know, a lot of it has to do with more of a lifestyle debate than a, than a tool or need based debate. And I look at the same way you do, like, you know, take the best tool for the job. Um, and
Sarah (1:07:28)
Mm-hmm.
Jay (1:07:48)
And sometimes you don't know what that is. Like I've done a lot of exploration diving and sometimes you just don't know because you've never been in there. And so, you know, you can't make that call. So that's when you plan progressive penetration or progressive exploration to say, okay, well, we don't know what tools we need, so we're going to take these tools, not everything, and we're going to stop when these tools are not sufficient. And now we know, and we're going to go back and retool. So you kind of bring the kitchen sink, but you start somewhere and then you retool, not bring the, I'm sorry. We'll make sure I'm clear about that.
Sarah (1:07:57)
Yeah.
Jay (1:08:18)
You don't bring the kitchen sink into the dive. You bring the kitchen sink in the truck and you figure out what you need. Right. Um, but for me, you know, uh, I, I do love the feeling of sidemount. It's, it's a great feeling. I also love the feeling of back mount doubles, you know, like sits you in a nice banana hammock, you know, you're just hanging, um, but it really comes down to the tool and I think that there are. Advantages and disadvantages.
Sarah (1:08:21)
Yeah, yeah, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jay (1:08:49)
to both, right? And it depends on how you're looking at it. So for example, in back-mounted doubles, one of the disadvantages that comes out is like you've mentioned, the idea of the gas, sorry, the platform restricting where you can go. Some of that I think too is like, I've been told a lot in Florida, like, oh, that's a sidemount only passage.
I like I've been in there and back about doubles. Like it's not, it's just a buoyancy and trim, you know, control question, not a, not an equipment question, right? But there certainly are places that are sidemount only like in, I know it's designed for no-mount So backmount has that restriction backmount might has the disadvantage. I think too of, um, the valves being behind your head. Uh, so you don't know what's going on. Sidemount has the advantage of valves being able to be pushed right in front of you. It's beautiful. So.
Sarah (1:09:39)
Mm-hmm.
That's why I tell people all the time, that's why I solo dive with sidemount. Not only because it's the equipment that I have, but it's because I can see everything.
Jay (1:09:55)
Yeah. And that's a nice advantage and a disadvantage to backmount. Backmount, another disadvantage, right, is because you can't see things, the level of training of your team needs to be adequate to be able to deal with it. Because really the protocol in doubles, you hear gas, there it goes. You know, guess. You really don't know which side it's at. You're like, go underwater and try to listen to bubbles. Do you know what's coming your left or right? I mean, really it's...
Sarah (1:10:10)
Mm-hmm.
Jay (1:10:25)
don't know until you go, okay, I think it's right. Boom, shut down that valve. Oh, there's still bubbles. Oh yeah. Shut down the manifold. Oh, there's still bubbles. Hey, you come and look at this. I don't know what's going on. Right. And, and you've got to trust that teammate that they know that plumbing to the point where they're not going to, you know, look at you and you're breathing from something that's working and shut that off on you. Again, that's a level of training. That's a disadvantage to, uh, to, to back mount in some ways, uh, back mounted doubles. Um, there are lots of advantages to back mounted doubles, right?
Sarah (1:10:35)
Mm-hmm.
Jay (1:10:56)
as well and in the amount of gas that you can carry. Again, you can dive steel tanks rather than aluminum tanks in doubles, which oftentimes you can get more gas with that. We don't dive steel in side mount as a standard simply because again, if you're using it as a tool that you need to no mount, that steel becomes part of your weighting system. When you take it off and you push it through restriction or you take it off for whatever reason, you lose that weight, which
can lose very quickly buoyancy because you can't magically gain weight underwater when you take that off. So again, these things are balanced. Another disadvantage to sidemount is, you know, in a lot of the ways that people dive it is that you're going back to independent doubles rather than manifolded or gas crossing across those two pieces. So your gas management becomes a little bit different and the emergency protocols change and you're switching regs.
Sarah (1:11:28)
Yeah, that's a great point.
Jay (1:11:52)
You know, you add a step in your emergency procedures to first verify which reg you're breathing from, right, before you're gonna gas share because you can't share the necklace. I think that's a major disadvantage to sidemount an independent doubles It's kind of going backwards in some ways. And, you know, I think that it's a disadvantage in the sense of it can be inconsistent with your team's protocols and training in some ways. Can be, I'm not saying always is, but can be.
Sarah (1:12:17)
Hmm.
Right.
Jay (1:12:22)
So all of this stuff, and then there's advantages to a single tank back mount with a stage, right? I mean, it's essentially doubles, but there's advantages and disadvantages to that. I mean, you know, there's advantages and disadvantages to rebreather in those configurations. So I think what you said that I'm in full agreement of is that, you know, trying to take the right tool for the dive.
You know, we have a saying that, you know, you take what you need for the dive. And so taking the right tool for the dive is the key. And, and then having a broad enough under, it's not sidemount or nothing or backmount or nothing, that's a lifestyle debate. I think if you're talking about, it's a tool, then it's a matter of what does this dive require? What puts me in the best position to one complete that dive and two, the goal of redundancy.
Sarah (1:12:56)
Yeah.
Jay (1:13:18)
I think this is all, sorry, I'm on a little bit of a soapbox, but this, this redundancy thing that I hear a lot in, uh, technical diving. Um, the goal of redundancy isn't to be redundant. So you can save yourself. The goal of redundancy in my mind is that you will, you know, inhibit the team, the least. It still requires to have the team there, but if I can still shut down the
Sarah (1:13:21)
Hehehehehehe
Jay (1:13:48)
And I have one tank I can still breathe from off of the necklace. For example, I'm not forcing a gas share. And so I'm inhibiting the team's movement and decision-making and thinking much less in that configuration than I would if I had to do a gas share on that exit. And so I always think about redundancy as a tool, not for me to be self-sufficient so I can solve my own problems, because the one thing that we can't be redundant with is our brain. And we know.
Sarah (1:14:16)
Mm-hmm.
Jay (1:14:18)
from all the accident reports, that's the thing that goes or can go. So the team is still needed. Yes, equipment can be redundant, but it's so that we hinder the taxing of the team's thinking and the taxing of the team's equipment much less. So again, all of this stuff goes back to a mindset, a philosophy and taking the tool for the type of diving that you wanna do. I'll shut up there, because I could go on, like I said, for three hours on this, because I'm so passionate about it.
Sarah (1:14:22)
Yeah.
Yeah, it's all good, it's all good. Yeah, and I'll speak to redundancy. I have the other mindset in that redundancy for me is a lifesaver for me personally as a diver because I'm solo diving so much. So again, it's understanding what your goal is, what you're going out to do. And going back to the question that I was...
presented with, like what do you think I should do? Right, it also comes down to, at least again, for me, as a small person, I have been really happy with my decision to go sidemount because it's not this giant freaking thing on my back that I have to walk around with. You know, I think about that dive that you mentioned at the very beginning of the podcast, The Pit. I would...
probably eat shit and die trying to climb down that ladder. I don't know if we cuss on this podcast, but I just did. So, but, you know, I would really struggle with getting down that giant slippery ladder with two huge tanks on my back, you know? So that's something that I like to
Jay (1:15:49)
Yeah, sure. This was explicit. I did already too.
Sarah (1:16:09)
remind people as well because I feel like, not everybody, but I feel like some people who follow me follow me because I am not this big burly dude, right? Like they see me in, or see them in me, that they're like, okay, she's facing the same challenges being a five foot four, you know, strong, but I'm a small woman. So there are those things too. And also like, can your,
back, like is your back okay to wear doubles? Because it's a lot of strain, you know, or your knee is okay to do that kind of carrying, you know, if you're having to make long walks. So, you know, again, tool for the job and recognizing your limitations, having that humility, going back to what we talked about earlier about humility of like, oh, I can't actually physically do that, right? Or I need help doing that.
I think is a really important thing to consider when you're like looking at the training and doing these different more, you know, we say quote unquote, advanced dives, right, going into technical diving. Just my two cents, but I feel like we're getting to that time. I don't know if there's something else that you want to mention through this, but we know. We know.
Jay (1:17:31)
know I could talk all day about this because I'm just so passionate and I apologize if my passion overtakes my brain but
Sarah (1:17:38)
No, no, it's been super, I think it's really cool. It's cool to listen to someone. I mean, I love listening to people who are passionate about what they do and I learned stuff from you because you're much more knowledgeable in this field. So I think it's awesome.
Jay (1:17:56)
Yeah, well, I appreciate that. And hopefully it's not too boring or too technical to go back to my dad joke at the beginning of the episode, this very technical episode. But I do think it's, you know, maybe I'll wrap up in my brain in this way and we should do more of these. It obviously lights me up. Look, I think when it comes to technical diving.
Sarah (1:18:06)
Good lord.
Jay (1:18:26)
in general, it limits the people you'll go diving with because it requires the trust in their training and their knowledge and their brains being switched on. It limits, I think, you to specific gear choices. In the sense that there are the right tools and the wrong tools. I think that... I always joke about this, but I was talking to this...
rebreather guy, you know, and I always like to ask the question and it's not to goad people, but just to say, you know, if I'm under water and I need gas from you, where do I go? And the answer was like, I've got this rig here and that right here and this bottle hanging there. You just do whatever you want. And to me, I went like, that's just not a mindset that I can get in the water with because the answer is nothing, right? Because there's no way you train seven different ways to get free.
gas from a guy. It's just not gonna happen. I say, look, if you need gas from me, you're gonna get gas right in your mouth for my long hose. Like that's what's happening. Regardless of I'm on my rebreather, I'm side mount doubles, I'm back mount doubles and back mount singles. That's what's gonna happen. And so for me, I think in general to wrap up the technical side is I think it's not a...
Sarah (1:19:30)
Mm-hmm.
Jay (1:19:51)
badge of honor to call yourself a technical diver. In other words, I don't think it's something that you should put on the goal board and say, I want to someday be a technical diver. I think that's a bad starting place. And I think it's a misnomer in the diving industry that is where you should end up, right? If you're going to get better. I think the reverse, I think what are the dives
Sarah (1:19:55)
Yeah.
Jay (1:20:19)
or the profiles or the things that light you up about diving. For me, it was that cenote. For me, I like the gear tinkering and I like that. Some people hate it. They'll never open a regulator and go like, no way, you're crazy to open a regulator. I'm like, let's open it up and let's go get training on what's actually happening there. I mean, I've read the entire book, right, on it's a crazy thick book and I love it. I like that stuff, right? But that's me and that's what lights me up. That's not everybody.
Sarah (1:20:22)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Jay (1:20:49)
And so again, I think, you know, letting your diving pull out the next level of training rather than letting the training and the upsell of maybe the next course or the ego of I want to say on this or that pull that is the, or peer pressure. Exactly. I think that's the key and good training should be consistent. Good training should be.
Sarah (1:21:06)
or peer pressure like I experienced. Yeah.
Yeah.
Jay (1:21:17)
You shouldn't have to relearn everything that you already learned on your first tech dive, but that's also a choice that you make in the progression that you take in your training. I've been really lucky with UTD and loved it. And again, the payoff has been great. Yeah, I mean, that's my two cents on technical diving. And I love being a tech diver, but I don't walk around going like, so once I say, you want to go for a dive, we're going to do single tank, 60 foot max. You want to go? Yeah.
I'll still wear my doubles because that's what I like, you know, and it's maybe more of a tool than I need, but it also isn't bad for me because like you say, the walking, it's not going to obstruct anything for me the same.
Sarah (1:21:52)
Mm-hmm.
it's practice, right? It's all practice and that's good because it keeps your skills fresh and it keeps you thinking about things. And it also exposes people to the equipment in a non-threatening way, right? They can see your doubles and be like, oh, what's going on there and why do you do that? It just gives an opportunity to bring tech closer to recreational.
and not make it be this scary big thing that isn't accessible to the average diver. So anyway, I think that was pretty roundabout. I don't know, we covered a lot of different things there, but hopefully that's, it's been interesting for people and hopefully you can take away just kind of mindset and
tips from our experiences, which are wildly different in this realm. And I look forward to circling back on this topic, especially after I do my cave refresher, because I'd love to kind of chit chat about what I learned and your experiences. We can talk about some of the cave dives that we've done and just do some storytelling. I think that would be really fun.
Jay (1:23:05)
Yeah, yeah.
That would be really fun. Yeah, no. And again, I think if you want to talk more to either one of us about our journeys and, you know, advice, whether it be earned advice, because we did it the wrong way or it'd be, you know, the way that we're processing things or those sorts of things reach out to, uh, you know, it's Jay at the dive table.com or Sarah with an H at the dive table.com. Um, we'd love to have those conversations. We'd love to talk about that. I don't think tech diving, like you said, should be this big scary.
us versus them, Spartans versus Athenians. And this big divide, I think it's, cause it's not, it's a profile. And that profile requires different things. So yeah, reach out.
Sarah (1:24:10)
Yeah. So we also, yes, and we also have a Facebook group, so you can join the Facebook group. We're going to be better about posting in there and being active. So come find us, hang out with us online, and we'll see you in the next episode.
Jay (1:24:29)
Alright, peace out.
