Sarah (45:12.174)
Mm hmm. Yeah.
Jay (45:15.106)
So you had confirmation of communication, but not confirmation of the actual decision. This is how you die. And so, you know, I was really hard on them. And I said, look, here's where you guys were going. Well, we were, nope, don't give me any excuses. Wait till you see it on the video. You're swimming south. Well, it was kind of Southeast. Okay, I don't wanna hear Southeast. I wanna hear, yes, it was a mistake. So get your asses back on shore, right? Let's go.
You know, change tanks and get your heads in the game, whatever you have to do. Right. Get back in the water and let's do this again. And they looked at me like, holy crap. You know, this guy's really down our throats. And I was because I believe that moment was a very teachable moment of like, they weren't going to die. I was going to let them swim south till they, till they hit Mexico, blah, blah. Right. It was, it, but it was a moment where, Hey, in a real life situation, and this is just shooting it back.
Sarah (46:00.878)
Mm-hmm. Ha ha ha ha!
Jay (46:11.446)
let's say there actually is a failure of some sort, you need to drive this home that, look, one, I need to at least reestablish my thinking brain, and two, I can't just trust what my teammate says, I need to confirm. And it turned out to be a great moment for them, I talked about it, so on and so forth. But that's the layer of training that we try to get to and what we do and why my IDC and my path, I think was so hard is that,
Sarah (46:13.358)
Mm-hmm.
Jay (46:40.175)
You've got to be able to be
three steps, five steps ahead of those students. And you have to be able to see the moments that are teachable and the moments that are not, that you just need to step in, and the moments that, you know, where, hey, you let them make the real mistake and let the consequence play out. And that's where the tech game, when working towards that as an instructor, for me personally, you know, that's the next level of the chess game, is trying to figure out how to put...
a team in a situation where you can get the sorts of reaction to pressure test a diver on something that maybe they need to be pressure tests on. I wouldn't say I know that game yet. I think I understand it as a student really well and I can see it as an instructor, but I don't know exactly how to put the chess pieces on the board yet and make that happen. So with recreational and the foundational stuff and all that, yeah, I feel pretty confident there. But the tech game, that's where I'm still growing. And eventually I hope to grow into an IT. I need to grow into an IT.
as part of the owner of the company. But yeah, that's my goal. So a lot about me, my goodness.
Sarah (47:43.31)
Cool. Well, that's a good, yeah, it's all good, man. It's interesting. I, again, don't know much about that organization. But that's a good segue to our episode for next week, where we're going to be talking about our tech diving experience. So we can dive more into your experience with that as a student and what you're going through to get that training as an instructor. And I'll share my nonsense story as well.
Jay (48:13.954)
Well, I hope it wasn't too much, but it was a long journey. And I can say looking back, it was all worth it. And like I think we were joking about on another episode that in retrospect, that slowing down and being patient is so important. And at the time, it felt so terrible. And so I think that's just part of the journey and part of what I experienced and I'm glad I went through it.
Sarah (48:25.774)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah (48:33.998)
No.
Sarah (48:38.446)
No, it's really cool, because I'll say just going right into my experience, I did the opposite. I was not patient. I did not go slow. Uh, and I think it, it impacted me negatively for a long time. I, and so, I mean, I shared in the last episode that I did a zero to hero program in Thailand, mostly cause I was just there for the fun of it.
You know, I didn't think I was gonna do anything. I had a career, I had my degree in winemaking and I was gonna go be a winemaker in California and whatever and I just had this little break in Thailand to become a dive master. And like, who wouldn't wanna do that? You know, unlimited diving. And I tell people all the time, even if you never wanna work a day in this industry, doing, that's kind of the difference between what you've experienced in PADI. Like PADI is...
Jay (49:17.975)
Yeah.
Sarah (49:30.19)
much more flexible, right? Like you can do a dive master and get all of the beautiful experiences and the teachings and everything without like being so, I don't wanna say like, because there's still dedication and passion, right? But it's a more accessible course. You can take it and be super focused on like, I'm gonna be a professional, I'm gonna work in this, or you could take it as like, I just wanna learn as much as I can as a diver.
and get a great experience out of this in a beautiful place somewhere in the world. So I think that's something that's really cool for the other organizations that are more mainstream is that flexibility. Because I do, I recommend to people, if you can take a sabbatical from work and go live somewhere for two months and do the Dive Master course, do it. Do it.
You don't have to work as a dive master ever, but you're gonna learn so much and have a blast, you know? And that was my mindset going into the dive master. Now, looking back, I wish I had taken it more seriously. I wish that, I mean, I still studied, because I'm a nerd, you know? I was on a role, AP course, like giant nerd. You know, I graduated from.
college with honors, you know, that's just like my personality. I like reading and learning. Um, so there, there wasn't so much that, um, but I, I didn't learn and I still struggle with this sometimes, uh, a lot of the places where, you know, I, I focus in, in certain areas and not in others. So like, I'm still, and I've said this for probably the last year and a half, like I'm still not very educated when it comes to equipment.
I need to learn more about that, you know, specifics about the ID, you know, marine animal ID and like their biology and everything. Like I want to learn so much, but at the same time, it's like there's so much to learn, like, and we all have to work and like do all this life stuff. So you know, it's a balance. It's a balance. But I do wish that back then I had started, you know.
Sarah (51:50.062)
taking it more seriously, but I didn't know. I was like 24, so whatever. So I did that experience, it was great. I find that, and I say this as a recommendation for people looking into a Dive Master course, like it's a good idea to at least try to talk to who the Dive Master mentors are going to be.
because that's gonna greatly impact what you get out of the course, right? Who's the course director? Who are the mentors? Because a regular open water scuba instructor can teach dive masters, right? Like they're gonna be, yeah, they're gonna be with them training, you know? And it's...
Jay (52:33.46)
Oh really?
Sarah (52:43.342)
I know that there were definitely moments in my Dive Master course where I didn't feel like...
Sarah (52:53.102)
Like my instructors were really interested in being there. Like there was a lot, there was a big drinking culture and everything. And I remember at one point, it was like, if I want to talk to my dive master mentor, like I need to sit at the bar, you know? And that's not like, that's not a great look, but that's the culture of certain places. So it's really important to do your research and find
Jay (53:07.498)
Mmm.
Sarah (53:21.678)
a spot and a shop and a team that suits what your goals are. Right. That's part of the reason why. When me and my business partners opened a soul and limited in Indonesia, we chose Labuan Bajo for the diving in the Komodo national park, we chose that specifically because we wanted to go into it.
Sarah (53:47.726)
training dive masters and instructors. Like that's, that's, oh my God. Yeah, like trying to keep a group together when there's strong currents, like good luck, you know. It's, it's a lot. It's a lot. And you learn a lot about the ocean and everything. So that was like all part of our mindset with opening the shop over there.
Jay (53:52.278)
And that's a more challenging place to dive, right? Which is exactly, yeah.
Jay (54:02.769)
Yeah.
Sarah (54:12.014)
And I think it was a big sales point for us, you know, even in the short amount of time that we were open there before the world shut down in 2020, we had, like, we grew with every single IDC. Like our name was getting out there. And I think that's part of it, you know, making sure that you sign up for it in a place where you're going to get the experience that you want. Not saying that that kind of, those kinds of conditions are right for everybody. But knowing the team.
and the culture of the team is a really important point. Getting a good vibe. A lot of course directors will have a phone call with you or the dive shop staff will connect you with whoever the senior instructor is. Usually you can get that kind of service when you're looking to sign up for a dive master course.
So again, I did not do that. I share this information so that hopefully someone does it better than I did. Yeah, yeah.
Jay (55:18.338)
So can I ask a quick question here? Looking back when you say, you know, do your research, what are the things that you wish you had researched or that you would tell yourself back when you were starting your journey? Hey, look into X, Y, or Z. Like you mentioned the culture of the team and the course structure, the location. Are there other things that maybe if someone's out there considering this that you would say, hey, look at, do the research on these things.
if you want. Because, you know, I think one of the things for me that I'm hearing you say is like, you guys purposely made it not more difficult artificially, but made it more challenging than maybe the bath water that you got your dive master in because you wanted to build some of that. I'm assuming I'm putting words in your mouth here, that resiliency or that experience with your professional people that you're teaching.
So are there other things that looking back you would say like, cause I'm okay coming out and saying it should be harder to be a dive master. Like it's, it's a hard, it should be hard, like not easy, but I don't want to put words in your mouth. So I'm hearing some of that, but I'm curious what you would look back and say.
Sarah (56:26.414)
Yeah. Yeah.
Sarah (56:33.582)
Yeah, I think other things to look out for is how active the dive shop is, right? So like if it's a boat operation, like you can only go boat diving, making sure that the shop actually goes frequently so that you can be on the boat. Also, how many dives are included in the dive master? Some programs offer unlimited diving, some only offer like 40 dives, right? So...
I think that's a big one to look into. And to look at the reality of it, right? A program might say, oh yeah, unlimited diving, it's great. And they're not very busy. Or maybe they're always too busy and there's never room for you on the boat, right? So it can go the opposite direction. So those are the questions that I would ask in that.
Um, the other thing, like, you know, going back to agencies, and this is where I will toot the patty horn, right? Because I, I think patty is a really strong, smart decision to go with if you want to work in, you know, around the world, really. Um, if you want to work as a dive master, it's a little bit more challenging because a lot of places will hire local dive masters.
but moving into the instructor side of things, there are patty dive shops everywhere, right? And so that's a very strategic choice in order to have a wide range of opportunities for work in the future. And I mean, that's why I went patty for a multitude of reasons, but that's a big one, you know? Trying to have a job and pay for life is hard. We've discussed this. And so having...
opportunities in front of you and also the support of such a large staff, it's really quite nice, right? You have any questions and you're going to get answers very, very quickly with Patti just because they have such a huge team. So yeah, I think that's, those are the main things. I might, I'm probably forgetting some stuff, but that's what I really look for with the Dive Master course.
Sarah (58:59.95)
As far as moving to instructor, it's an important question to ask is, you know, if you're meeting your course director and you've talked to them, you've discussed how the course goes, everything, you need to ask how much the course director is actually teaching. Because myself, as an IDC staff instructor, I can teach most of that course. Pretty, well, just about all of it, right?
So you could be signing up for a course with a course director and you're like, oh my gosh, I'm so excited to learn from this person. And then they're there for the introduction and like a handful of lectures or in water sessions. And then you're with some IDC staff person that you have no clue about, right? So it's important to ask that like, what are you gonna be teaching? What are the staff instructors gonna be teaching? Who are your staff instructors? What are their experiences?
to really get an idea of what you're signing up for and what you're gonna gather. And it's good to, I think, it's good to take courses in places that have different conditions. Like unless you're a local, California is a great example, right? Like you dive all the time in Monterey and you're always gonna dive in Monterey. You wanna work in Monterey, like go ahead.
take the IDC, take the instructor development course in Monterey, that's totally cool. That's your shtick, stick with it. But if you're looking to travel the world and do this, I think it's really nice to go somewhere new, right? Because you're gonna get exposed to people with different experiences, you're gonna dive in a different place, and it's just a good thing. We talked about in the last...
Jay (01:00:42.129)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah (01:00:53.582)
episode of recreational diving, it's that experience of exposure, going out and learning from different conditions and people. Yeah.
Jay (01:01:09.15)
Yeah, and I think maybe to build on that too, the other thing that triggered me to it, going back to what you were saying with the decision around Patty from a professional standpoint in terms of opportunity. I'll be honest, I went through that, you know, in my local diving where I could work conceivably. It was like, look, they're all, you know, these big box scuba shops and they're not going to bring me in as UTD dude to come and teach in their shop. I mean,
Sarah (01:01:36.366)
Mm-hmm.
Jay (01:01:39.23)
Which I think is a shame, but this is not the episode to talk about that. So I had to make that decision. And for me, again, I was lucky in the sense that, you know, I wasn't looking at Scuba as a next career at the time. It was a vocational thing, which I think it is for a lot of people. And so I remember going through this, having some conversations. And one of the things that came out in some of those conversations was, well, if you do, if you go a different direction.
Sarah (01:01:42.83)
Hehehe
Sarah (01:01:55.566)
Yeah.
Jay (01:02:09.414)
you're likely going to be asked to teach things that you no longer dive or styles that maybe you're not aligned with. Are you okay with that? And I was like, no, I'm not. And that was easy to make that call from there of like, I want to teach how I dive. And so again, I think that's a real consideration. And it goes back to, I think, something maybe even bigger, which is, what are your goals? Are your goals to be a professional in the industry and make a living in it? Is it a
fun thing to do. Is it like you were saying with getting to Dive Master, is it your own personal education just deepening that in a more structured way, right? Like I think thinking about, you know, the old joke, I'm sure you've heard this as a dive shop owner, you know, how do you build a million dollar a year dive shop? You know the punch line there?
Sarah (01:02:44.686)
Hmm.
Sarah (01:02:59.47)
Start with two. Yep.
Jay (01:03:00.982)
Start with two million. I don't think I know any instructors that are like, or maybe I know of like one or two instructors that are like living the high life off of scuba instruction. I definitely don't know any dive masters that are like, I'm good. In terms of like financially, I think there's a lot of other things that come up from those experiences that are much more valuable than let's say money, but it's not, let's just be real.
Scuba is not an industry that you get into the professional ranks and it's like becoming the CEO of a company or a higher up executive somewhere. It's still hard work. It's not a lot of money. Yeah, exactly.
Sarah (01:03:41.742)
Yeah, not even close. It's not even close. You're the grunt, you're the grunt, right? And we're trying to change that. At least that's something that I'm aiming to do. I was just telling you before we hit record that I'm putting together a marketing and business course for scuba divers, an online course, because I want more people to be successful in this industry, it's crazy. We all need to be making more money, hands down.
Jay (01:04:08.254)
I agree. I agree.
Sarah (01:04:10.478)
But anyway, that was kind of a roundabout. Going back to my experience, and this is gonna be a long episode, dude. But yeah, so I did the Dive Master course, and then I went to California, because that's, again, I was going back to my job. And with over 100 dives in that bathtub, my first dives in Monterey were a joke, honey. Like...
Jay (01:04:21.425)
Split it into two.
Sarah (01:04:40.11)
It was zero visibility. I was diving with another, he had done the dive master in Kotel with me, so we were like two warm water divers, we had no idea what was going on. And it was shocking. It was shocking and humbling to be like, wow, I know nothing about this sport. I do not know how to handle these conditions. So I spent the next year just like diving in California, getting to know.
Jay (01:04:51.936)
Ha ha.
Sarah (01:05:09.646)
the conditions and how to deal with shore diving and the cold and just all of the things because I needed to, I needed to soak all of that in. During that time, I got, I think I got my yoga teacher training and realized that I liked teaching. I wasn't sure that I would, my dad is a teacher, so he thinks it's really funny that I'm into teaching now because I was always like, ugh, I don't wanna be a teacher. But I-
I did, I found out that I love teaching. And so that planted the seed of like, okay, I wanna do my IDC. And I decided to go, I don't really remember, it might've been a recommendation from somebody. I went to Playa del Carmen and that's, I've looked up the course and it seemed great and I just decided to go.
And so that was just a temporary thing. I went for two or three weeks just to do my IDC. But it really set in my brain like, wow, maybe this could be something, right? And I went back home, I kept working my normal job and whatever and it was like, at some point I decided that I was gonna try it, right? Because I was at a crossroads of like, I could stay in my career.
or I could try this totally crazy thing and pursue yoga and scuba diving. And so I decided to save up for a long time because I knew that doing something like that, I may not be making a lot of money for a while. So I've made that my focus of saving, saving, saving. And then I moved to Mexico. I moved to Playa del Carmen. And there I started teaching. In the meantime, I had been teaching in California and I assisted several courses.
Jay (01:06:36.861)
Hehehehe
Sarah (01:07:02.158)
because again, I still was so new to how challenging it is to teach in California. Like it's really, you know this, like it can be so hard on those low vis days and the waves and everything. It's a challenge. People that learn there really learn a lot about diving just in that short course. But yeah, I started working.
Jay (01:07:23.758)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah (01:07:27.79)
over there and I went through, I think I ended up doing my MSDT for Patty, so Master Scuba Diver Trainer. A lot of times people will do IDC and MSDT together. It's like a package that Patty usually tries to get you into when you're doing the course. And that just means that you get specialty instructor training for five specialties. Sorry, that, yeah.
Jay (01:07:51.538)
Okay. Yeah, I was going to ask. So you, so you then to become a master, what is it? Master scuba dive trainer, diver trainer. Okay. Um, to become that you have to then go through and earn specialties in five other things. Is that, am I understanding correctly?
Sarah (01:07:58.382)
Diver trainer, yeah. Yeah.
Sarah (01:08:08.334)
you have to have instructor, yeah, you have to have instructor level training in five different specialties. So like some IDC courses will offer a couple of specialties as part of the IDC course, right? Like that's something extra as a way to get people to sign on, right? And that gets you on the path to become a master scuba diver trainer. And I mentioned that because in some places,
Jay (01:08:13.862)
Ah, okay. Okay.
Jay (01:08:28.782)
Gotcha.
Sarah (01:08:36.622)
because of the culture in the place, dive shops will only wanna hire you if you are an MSDT, because what does that do? It encourages people to sign up for the course when they're doing the IDC. Does that make sense? It's kind of, yeah, it's to get people into that. I didn't do that at first. That was the only time that I didn't rush into something during my training.
Jay (01:08:53.066)
Got it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jay (01:09:02.478)
Ha ha ha.
Sarah (01:09:03.63)
But I just didn't need to, I knew that with California. So it just wasn't like a priority for me at the time. So the one time I slowed down, yeah, I waited a year to become a MSCT. And then soon after moving there, I got together with my ex-business partner and he was on the pathway to become a course director. And so I very quickly went through
the steps of becoming an IDC staff instructor. And again, did it too fast. I should have spent a lot more time in that instruction, going through just teaching the recreational courses over and over and over again. But in my life, there have been a lot of like, just opportunities have shown themselves and I've jumped on them.
instead of saying like, oh, I'm not quite ready for that. I should wait until the next time. Like I've just said, well, it's here, let's go. And whether that's good or bad, you know, I paid for it. I definitely didn't have, when I started teaching instructor courses, I didn't have the experience. Oh, we lost a light. Remember what that means? We're getting to our limit here. But what I found...
Jay (01:10:24.974)
Hahaha.
Sarah (01:10:33.23)
was I did not have the experience when I first started assisting with IDCs. I really should have spent more time. And so that's why I'm really happy to be back assisting IDCs now because I feel like I'm an actual IDC staff instructor. Like I, not that, I mean, I still have so much to learn, like so, so much, but I feel like I can actually give a lot to students, you know?
Jay (01:10:49.592)
Hmm.
Sarah (01:11:01.774)
So that was my pathway with it. It was just a lot of jumping ahead too fast and then dealing with the consequences of imposter syndrome, right? Like I would be in this role of like being the head instructor and leading the dive master course and not feeling like I should be there.
You know, and I shouldn't have to be completely honest. I shouldn't have. Like I definitely needed a lot more experience to be in that position. But you know, it's not, I wouldn't say that it completely negatively impacted, but I look at it now and I'm like, I would have done a lot better. Like I would have given more value to those people if I were teaching, if I were in that role today, you know? So.
That's my experience through the courses. I've had people ask whether I've thought about becoming a course director and going back to business, the business of diving, right? When you decide to go a certain path, you have to weigh the financial bit of it, right? Like, what does it take for me to become, to get to that level? What am I going to be making?
after that? Like, is it going to balance out in a way that makes sense to a business? And for me, it's just never panned out in the calculations. You know, I have enough friends who are course directors. It's kind of like having a boat. You know, you want your friend to own the boat. You don't actually want to own the boat. You know? Like, that's what I think of. Like, I'm really, really happy as an IDC. Yeah. There you go. Yeah, right.
Jay (01:12:24.429)
Mm-hmm.
Jay (01:12:34.207)
Right.
Jay (01:12:40.785)
Hahaha
Jay (01:12:45.354)
Or just by the agency outright, right?
Sarah (01:12:50.702)
Like for me as an IDC staff instructor, I love that role. I love being the backup dancer to, you know, the center stage person, like making things happen and helping people and, you know, just because my name isn't on the certifying paperwork, like it doesn't mean that I'm not a part of it. Like I don't need that. And that's just me personally. It's because I know that I'm not going to dedicate my life to teaching IDCs.
and I'm not gonna make that investment back. Because it's a big investment. It's like a serious decision to be a course director or I don't know what the investment is for UTD, but it's a really big effing deal, right? So that's something that it's just never made sense for me. I'm not saying that it won't make sense for me. I'm totally open to doing something like that in the future. I'd...
life has changed so much in the last three years. I don't know what's gonna happen in the next three years. You know? So, yeah, I just know that from my experience now, I don't want to, not that I would be rushing into things now like 10 years in, but that's definitely been my downfall through my career of being around a lot more talented divers and with people who have a lot more experience.
Jay (01:13:53.152)
Right?
Sarah (01:14:17.038)
And I just got shoved into the group and like, all right, you're hanging out with us, let's go. And usually I can hang to a certain point, right? But there comes that, like you were discussing about understanding, what did you say? It was seeing the game. You can't rush that. There's no rushing that ever. You just have to have the time and the experience.
Jay (01:14:29.614)
Sure.
Jay (01:14:37.996)
Yeah.
No.
Sarah (01:14:47.054)
Yeah, that's my biggest takeaway or my biggest recommendation besides all the stuff that I talked about with choosing courses is slow down, take your time with it.
Jay (01:14:59.882)
Yeah, I think it's good advice. I mean, you said something there that, again, I love the feeling of the imposter syndrome. Do you remember your first open water course where it was just you, where you were the lead instructor? Can you remember that one?
Sarah (01:15:07.726)
Mmm.
Sarah (01:15:18.126)
Oh gosh.
I'm trying to remember who was my actual like first, because it's a little hazy for me because I did do co-teaching for a bit. And so, I mean, oh gosh, I'm not, so this is, my memory's terrible. But I will tell you of one that was like, it wasn't super early on, but I think it was the worst conditions I've ever taught in ever. And,
Jay (01:15:30.61)
Okay. Or it's just you and the students. Do you remember that one?
Sarah (01:15:51.278)
I remember thinking like, oh good God, you know, I had three students, it was zero visibility. We only had that weekend to do it, right? And luckily they were all friends of mine and yogis. So they were able to like, you know, we all kind of came together and like, this is gonna suck. It's gonna be really hard. We need to stay relaxed, right? And we got through it together, but.
Jay (01:16:12.886)
Center.
Sarah (01:16:20.782)
I don't know why that popped into my brain. It's definitely not my first course. I'm gonna have to think about that. How sad that I don't have that in my brain straight away. Let's hear yours.
Jay (01:16:31.678)
Yeah, that imposter syndrome thing I think is a really nice way to sum up. I hope I never feel, I hope there's always a tinge of that for me in my instruction because I think it keeps you on your toes the minute you feel like, Oh, I got this. That's the beauty of teaching is that no two classes are ever the same. No two students are ever the same. There's always adaptation, always growth. But I just remember, you know, it's akin to when I had my, I had.
Sarah (01:16:42.702)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Sarah (01:16:52.654)
Right.
Jay (01:17:01.398)
when my wife had our first daughter. And I remember leaving the hospital after however many days you're supposed to spend there. And I remember getting on the freeway and they put her in our car, you know? Like driving home. That's like, I'm not licensed to do this. Like what do you mean I can take, like I felt, it sounds silly, but I honestly felt like I was doing something illegal, which sounds silly now, like, but I did not feel qualified to take a kid home.
Sarah (01:17:17.134)
Yeah.
Sarah (01:17:29.71)
Mm-hmm.
Jay (01:17:30.742)
You know, it was like, are you kidding? This is happening and we're getting on the freeway. And, you know, you feel, I think you feel that for that way from your first year of parenthood period. But I remember the same feeling or a similar feeling with my first, you know, open water students of like, you know, you have the time in the pool with them, which is a nice structure to a course, right? Because it's pretty, you know, relatively safe in the pool compared to open ocean. But like you say, you take them into the water and
Sarah (01:17:50.606)
Mm-hmm.
Jay (01:17:58.89)
And it's open water and it's like, do I know what I'm doing? You know, do I, do I, oh, you know, you know, I had to be honest with you. Sorry, students, if you're listening to this and, you know, I remember kind of feeling like, Hey, everyone survived and got back like, all right, like, you know, like that was the first metric. I'm okay. You know, like I did it. Um, but yeah, I've had, I think that's, it just plays on the thing that you're saying about going slower and, and.
Sarah (01:18:02.478)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah (01:18:13.198)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Jay (01:18:28.35)
experience, it's just time under the water. It's time having those silly stories that you and I could sit around a campfire and tell of things that have happened to us as pros that are funny now. But at the time, I mean, gosh, I remember one where I was just a dive master and I wasn't even an official course. It was like dive guiding. And this couple, the...
Sarah (01:18:41.966)
Mm-hmm.
Jay (01:18:57.674)
husband and wife, the wife for whatever reason, just would not stop swimming 10 foot feet above the husband. And I like, that's how they dove together. That was their norm. And there was really low visibility and it was like trying to keep these two together and it's like, let's try to split the difference, you know, all these things is really hard. And then all of a sudden I turn around and the wife's gone and I look at the husband like,
Sarah (01:19:23.054)
Thank you.
Jay (01:19:24.162)
Dude, where's your wife? Like it's not, I'm not, I'm not in official capacity here. I'm just here, you know, diving along. And he's like, I don't know. Okay, great. So what do I do? You know, like, okay, you stay right there. Like don't move. Like, okay. Like, I don't know what else to do. I'm gonna look around for a minute. Nope, she's not there. Came back to him and said, you and I are going up. Let's go. We come up to the surface and there she is. And
Sarah (01:19:32.43)
Oh my god.
Jay (01:19:52.746)
She's like, oh, I did it again. And I'm like, what? So yeah, you know, I pressed the wrong button. I thought I was pressing let gas out and I pressed the other button. This is by the way, not in my course, not being trained by me, just divers in the wild. And I was just like, okay, you know, who are like 20 minutes into a dial? Okay, I think we're done. Like, the shore is that way. Let's just surf and swim back to the shore. Like we're good, like we're good.
Sarah (01:20:00.27)
God.
Sarah (01:20:06.574)
Yeah.
Sarah (01:20:21.806)
It's gonna be funnier.
Jay (01:20:22.55)
But it's just, you can't manufacture that in any IDC.
Sarah (01:20:26.702)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, the experience. Yeah, I will say though, and I want to say this for any, I mean, I'm assuming that a lot of the demographic is male, just because that's what my YouTube channel looks like too. But for any women that are listening to this, my experience with imposter syndrome was also related to the dynamic of male and female interaction in the dive shop.
And so, you know, something to mitigate that, slowing down, being, you know, doing the training in a pace that feels right, being experienced, you know, getting that experience in the water. But also it's a personal development of self-esteem, right? There are a lot of big personalities in diving and especially in professional level. I mean, I've...
I've met so many, so many people that just, they think that they're God's gift to scuba diving and the best instructor in the whole entire world, right? And I think it's something that's not unique to women, but I think we get hit with it more, is this like, am I supposed to be here? You know, like, can I hang here? So,
And something that helped me with that was just working on myself, my own self-esteem and understanding that I don't do things the same way that my cohorts do, but we're all sticking to standards. I have a different style and that's going to vibe with certain people, right? So I just wanted to mention that because that was part of my experience, especially early on.
And I wish that I had had a female mentor, just to give me like an example to look at and be excited to like, I wanna be you, you know? That's something, anyway, that was kind of a side thing, but it was important to me. It would have been helpful for me.
Jay (01:22:35.775)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Jay (01:22:45.546)
Yeah. Well, and I appreciate you bringing that up because again, like, I think that's a perspective that is important to raise and that often probably doesn't get raised. And I think maybe to the point as well is that's when, you know, you're talking about the culture and the interviewing course directors and the IDC staff and all these folks. I really do like our model of apprenticeship at UTD because...
Sarah (01:23:08.846)
Mm-hmm.
Jay (01:23:14.942)
It is a relationship that gets built deeply around trust over a longer period of time, months and months. Um, but I do think regardless of, of training, and I think this applies to all training, not just IDC, but it's probably particularly important in IDC and the higher level technical courses and things is that, that trust gets, is there where you do feel like you, you have a relationship.
Sarah (01:23:22.702)
Right.
Sarah (01:23:40.11)
Mm-hmm.
Jay (01:23:44.194)
where I like that you say, where you do aspire to be like that person, not just as a diver with skills. That's a part of it, but as a human being, observing them as they interact with people, as they order food at a restaurant, I mean, as silly as that sounds, it's something I'm paying attention to, right? And I was lucky to have that in the mentors that I've had and continue to have. I'm lucky to still look at them and say, wow, like,
I really hope someday I'm half as good as he is in explaining that. Or while I wish that my gut instinct response to that situation was that. That's something I can learn from, right? Because I would have taken it in a different way.
Sarah (01:24:27.662)
Well, yeah. Yeah, that's the whole thing. I mean, that's a huge aspect of both the dive master and instructor courses. It's that professionalism, right? It goes beyond what you're doing in the water. It's really being a role model. And that's important, you know? Because that gives people the impression of this industry and the dive shop, the, you know, whatever. It leaves an impact. So that's really cool.
I feel like this was hopefully will be helpful for people. I feel like we need to wrap it up. We've been blabbing for a long time. But it's great. Again, I wish that this kind of stuff was out there when I was going through my training and looking at things. I mean, I say that at 24, I probably wouldn't have listened to anyone anyway.
Jay (01:25:03.154)
Yeah, sure. Probably two episode or.
Sarah (01:25:22.99)
So hopefully the younger generation is smarter than I was. But yeah.
Jay (01:25:27.87)
Yeah. Well, I do think it's never too late. Right. And I think, I think to be a good instructor, it's just because you have that title now, at least this is the way I feel about it. It doesn't mean that I'm done learning how to be a good instructor. There's always something to learn. There's always experiences, right? That you can just because, you know, you're an instructor with X agency doesn't mean that
Sarah (01:25:45.934)
Learning all the time. Yeah, my gosh.
Jay (01:25:54.434)
that you shouldn't explore other opportunities to be a dive master somewhere else. I think that the professional side of things is about seeing the game. That's at least my brief summary of it. There's so many ways to put yourself in a situation to do that. You talk about crazy Komodo currents versus guiding someone through a cavern, totally different versus shore diving in California.
Sarah (01:26:03.342)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah (01:26:10.414)
Yeah.
Sarah (01:26:19.406)
Yeah.
Jay (01:26:23.55)
You know, told him in the king tide, yeah, good luck. So continual learning is so important and, and all the principles of getting started, doing your research, building a relationship, all things you talked about still apply to an ongoing relationship and ongoing learning. Um, you know, that's, you know, we are the grunts as instructors, I think. And the beauty of that is that we also get those gritty experiences and it makes us better and makes us stronger. I think that's good.
Sarah (01:26:23.822)
Good times.
Sarah (01:26:34.958)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah (01:26:51.31)
Good stories. Yeah.
Jay (01:26:53.106)
Exactly. Good search. All right. Well, let's wrap this one up. You're right. And Daniel's probably going to split it into two episodes. And I think that's a good thing. So, uh, I'll wrap it up by saying this. Um, I'm glad I became a professional, uh, such a weird industry in the sense that professional doesn't mean you're actually good at it. It just means you could teach it, which we don't, you know, other, every other call it sport or, you know, activity or whatever also assumes, you know, pro become sponsored.
Sarah (01:27:08.75)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah (01:27:12.91)
Mm-hmm.
Jay (01:27:23.426)
But I'm glad for myself that I became a pro because it's put me in a position to help others have the experience that I wish I had had. And it's also put me in a lot of positions to grow and to see things on my own diving in a very challenging tech dive to, one of the struggles I have is I'm not the instructor in that dive. So, and I shouldn't be. So I'm not the one that's, I'm a team member.
Sarah (01:27:47.246)
Mm.
Jay (01:27:52.566)
So it gives you some challenges to really figure out and see your own diving and just open up your eyes a little bit more and to widen and deepen the experience of diving for you as an individual. I don't think it's a goal to try to achieve as a next step, if that's the next thing on your list. I think you have to love teaching or should want to love teaching.
and should want to be in that position where you're the continuing learner. Not just, well, the next thing I have on my list is instructor, because that's what that list says. I think that you're in a struggle.
Sarah (01:28:30.35)
Yeah, that's super important. And I tell everybody that, like, not everybody should be an instructor. That, I mean, I thought for the longest time that I wouldn't, you know, it was only once I got some experience teaching something else, something completely unrelated, that I was like, oh, yeah, that could be for me. Yeah, I agree. Like, hands down, I don't regret, like, I'm super happy being an instructor. I think it's important to mention that, as an instructor,
Like there are so many opportunities and ways that life can look. And so getting an idea of what you want your career to look like, it's important to see the variety out there. It doesn't mean that you have to be traveling all over the place. You could be part-time, you could be freelance, you could have your own business. You know, there's so many options. And also to keep fun diving.
Keep fun diving and doing stuff for you because if you're only getting in the water to teach courses, you're gonna burn out. And on top of, aside from that tip, take breaks if you need to. After everything that happened with 2020 and Indonesia closing down and everything, I took a full year where, I mean, more than that technically, but I did not pay, I wasn't in...
Jay (01:29:29.271)
Yes.
Sarah (01:29:58.574)
I dropped my teaching status for a full year because I was in like recovery mode, you know? And I think it's important to acknowledge that, you know, when we are, we're needing a break from something, you can still be diving and working on your skills and whatever, but maybe you need a break from teaching. Just those kinds of things. Anyway, let's wrap this up. This was great. Thanks so much. I don't know. What else do we say here? Reach out to us.
Jay (01:30:22.89)
Absolutely. Wrap it all up. Well, reach out to us. Yes, we should have said that at the beginning, but hey, I think Sarah and I both, if you want to talk more about maybe your path to becoming an instructor and those sorts of things of the things that you're struggling with, do I go this direction or that direction or how do I advance? I think Sarah and I would love to talk to you about that and share more of our experience if this hasn't been enough, to share more and to give our two cents.
Sarah (01:30:28.302)
Yeah.
Sarah (01:30:49.71)
Right.
Jay (01:30:52.778)
I think at least I can say this for both of us a little bit is that we're both passionate about this activity, about diving and want to see others that have shared that passion grow in it, whatever direction that goes. So send us a message, jay at thedivetable.com or Sarah with an H at thedivetable.com and let us know how we might be able to assist your journey or things that you're struggling with.
Sarah (01:31:01.422)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah (01:31:19.726)
Mm-hmm.
Jay (01:31:20.894)
And if you're not going to be a professional, great. That you don't need to feel any pressure to become that. You've now heard our journeys and our experiences of it. And you just want to be a diver. Awesome. We encourage everybody to join the community at the dive table at thedivetable.com and become a part of the conversation.
Sarah (01:31:36.334)
Yeah, and we have a Facebook group too, so if you wanna join that and share your experience or your questions there, that would be really rad too.
Jay (01:31:47.73)
Awesome. Well, thanks everyone out there in the skewiverse for listening, and we'll see you on the next episode of the dive table.
Sarah (01:31:53.71)
Peace.
