Jay (00:01.15)
Welcome to the dive table. I'm Jay Gardner and with me is Mr. Ben Boss back again for our second episode together, coming all the way from a sunny Denmark. No, Denmark is Ben Ben. How are you doing today?
Ben Bos (00:16.098)
Good, good. Dude, anything but sunny. I mean, the summer has definitely gone here. It's windy, rainy, cold as a refrigerator. It's starting to get miserable. It's time to book a flight to your side of the pond, I think.
Jay (00:32.245)
Come stay with us for another couple weeks and enjoy that. So when was the last time you took a non scuba training? Like you know, whatever it was, what was the last thing you had to learn from somebody non scuba?
Ben Bos (00:34.414)
Oh good lord, yeah.
Ben Bos (00:45.262)
Oh, a non-scuba thing. Well, as a part of like a course or?
Jay (00:53.216)
Whatever, something you had to learn from somebody.
Ben Bos (00:55.218)
Yeah, well actually not that long ago I took a skills session in swimming, in freestyle swimming.
Jay (01:06.983)
Nice and how did it go?
Ben Bos (01:08.662)
Well, great, because it's so nice to be on the other side. And, you know, when you're teaching a lot in your life and you're... I'm going to, as far as to say, as by now, I've done this for 24 years professionally, you know, it's becoming not what you do, it's becoming what you are. And turning it around and putting yourself in the student's place is so refreshing because you...
Jay (01:31.786)
Mm.
Ben Bos (01:38.81)
In that case, it was very close to what we do, you know, because this guy is filming me in the swimming pool and giving me technique things. It was like, like hearing me talk about someone that needs to learn how to use his fins there, and you would think that I'd have a grasp on how it works to move through water, but damn, you, you use your hands instead of your feet and everything changes, the whole thing changes. So that was.
That was eye-opening. Yeah.
Jay (02:09.59)
Yeah, yeah. The last time, unfortunately for me, that I, what was recent, I had to take some compliance training. And it was all virtual compliance training. Oh my gosh, it was just like pulling your hair out. You know, the, they kind of treat you like you're a three-year-old. Like you can't even read. So they're gonna voice over everything and make it so explicit. And then there's like a 40 question quiz that all of them are, you know.
Ben Bos (02:23.457)
Yeah.
Ben Bos (02:31.459)
Mmm.
Ben Bos (02:36.46)
Yeah.
Jay (02:38.01)
So, you know, there's some, there's some variance in what the answer could be. Uh, and they just go for it. So, um, yeah. And that kind of sets up today. Cause we're talking about training, which would be kind of fun. So we were talking and we, when you were here and we thought, Hey, wouldn't it be fun, we both have spent a lot of time of our life designing training, quote unquote, but really transformation, you know, shifting the way that people behave and think about things.
Ben Bos (02:49.269)
Yeah, cool.
Ben Bos (03:04.79)
Yeah.
Jay (03:06.946)
for adults, right? For people that are well adults, right? In your scuba, you're doing, you know, people that are certified divers or certifying divers, definitely adults, no longer kids. For me, I don't know if a lot of the podcast world knows this for me, but I do a lot of work in the innovation side. So training people who have their MBAs and all these sorts of things in big businesses, how to behave differently, how to...
Ben Bos (03:11.554)
Hmm.
Jay (03:35.218)
not act like a big company, but act like a startup, scrappy and learn first and be okay with failure. It's a total mindset shift for a lot of that. And so we thought it'd be fun to do a cool podcast on that. So are you ready to jump into this one?
Ben Bos (03:48.822)
Yeah, definitely. Because we were, I remember we were talking back and forth like, Hey, we should do the other episodes and what should we talk about? And then I think all of a sudden in the car, it just came to us like, Hey, you know, let's, it was, it was the most obvious choice to just talk about actually what we're doing here, designing scuba education. And I think, I think you, you hit the nail on the head when you said it's like, Hey, eliciting a different.
behavior because that's kind of the essence of why we are a bit different in the way we teach I guess within UTD. It's not a simple list of check marks to be ticked off on a slate or a bunch of standards that just need to be fulfilled and that's it. We're really looking at behavior of people.
But now in a different environment, we kind of, without getting ahead of ourselves, but we kind of look at, okay, you as a person want to experience the underwater world. Great. Let's first and foremost start to see how you as a person will behave underwater as a physical being. So yeah, the motory aspect of that on the entry-level classes at least are extremely heavy. And I think under...
um underplayed or under underestimated under how you say under emphasized in certain yeah like when i look at myself like the way i used to teach um in the early days for sure so yeah
Jay (05:22.398)
Emphasized
Jay (05:34.454)
All right, well, let's get into this one. So I guess to set everything up, the first thing is, you know, how do you approach designing training for adults? So to kind of set it up in a little bit more context, I think what we're talking about in the intro there, what we're trying to do is look at, okay, there's a problem to be solved or whatever that would be, a desired outcome from a student. They start from that perspective.
And if we take something like, you know, let's say tech one, for example, they're a diver. The problem to be solved is they want to extend the depth that they go to. Right. And, uh, and they want to have that tech card so they could buy helium. Right. That's the kind of problem that they're coming in. And then there's this outcome. There's this other side that says, okay, they have their, their skills, tools, um, to be able to then do that. Right. And in between that,
those two ends, the desire and the problem and the outcome or the resolution of that, something has to be there and that's the training, right? That's okay, I'm gonna go take a course. And behind the scenes there for a lot of you that have never designed courses or been involved in that is a lot of thought of, okay, how would that course go? What are the things that need to happen so on and so forth to produce this outcome from this state? So let's talk a little bit about.
that how do you approach, you know, the design of, of something to solve the problem, to produce the outcome when you're thinking about, you know, tech one or open water or, or whatever it is. Oh, and by the way, I forgot to mention before we jumped too far in this, if you don't know, I probably should have set you up a little bit better here. Ben, Ben is the training director for UTD, a unified team diving, um, has designed tons of courses over the course of his career. And so when he
Ben Bos (07:10.667)
Yeah.
Ben Bos (07:17.857)
Hehehe
Jay (07:27.51)
He's speaking on these things. Um, this is coming from his experience and in being successful as an agency in producing those outcomes. So just wanting to set that up. Cause I forgot to mention that in the beginning, not everyone knows you as well as I do.
Ben Bos (07:39.55)
No, that's true. We kind of know each other and then we just skipped over it. But I think these podcasts on that note, you know, when, when we're talking in this casual way, uh, I think there's a more an organic flow to them, so to speak. So yeah, that was the intro. So
Jay (07:57.401)
It's like...
Jay (08:01.11)
All right, go for it. So how do you approach these, this in-between space of, okay, I need to design something to solve this problem.
Ben Bos (08:07.082)
Yeah, exactly. So the materials we put out there are twofold, right? They're learning materials, they're educational materials for the user, but they're tools and work tools for the instructors that use them out there. So they're twofold. And that poses its own set of.
challenges when it comes to building out the curriculum for a set class, let's say a tech class. So when we first look at, we start to look at the user, the student or the potential student. What I always think about is there has to be some kind of an alignment of expectation. Like you said it up perfectly, like okay, they come in with a certain need to
solve a problem and be that in their mind, getting a certification card so that they can safely do these dives from a liability point of view, you know, okay, if they're doing these dives to certain depths, technical range in that jargon, the insurance company might require a certain level of certification before they can actually do these things. But also gas fills, like you need to show a certain level of certification. So there's a practical aspect.
of that. Hey, in order for me to rent this car, I need to present my driver's license. Great. I need to go get my driver's license because I want to rent this car. You know, that's a very pragmatic view to it. And obviously that is a big part of it for sure. But scuba diving is also very unregulated because I always feel, how you say,
surprised almost, but proud is like if someone asked me, hey, can I see your certification card? And it's very rare, right? I mean, how often do you actually hear that question? Which is strange though, because people spend a lot of time and effort and money in getting that card and then it never gets asked, let alone the log book or something like that. So when you look at the pragmatic part of it, it's easy, basically.
Jay (10:30.847)
Mm-hmm.
Ben Bos (10:31.766)
Because, OK, great. If someone wants to use this in a pragmatic form, they need to learn certain theory. They need to know how to handle certain pieces of equipment from a practical point of view. And that's it. There you go. Off you go. Because all the other stuff is kind of hard to measure. I can measure your knowledge on theory. Like, OK, great. Gas filling. What?
gases are you allowed to dive with? It's a very simple, wrong or correct answer. All that sort of stuff is measurable. So that's super easy to build into a class. I'll just make a presentation. In that presentation, you will get some facts and figures. You learn them, you do a little quiz and you can test yourself. At the end, you do a little exam and you get the outcome and you've passed because you've made not enough mistakes to not pass and then you get the card. Great, perfect.
That's all fine. But what I think is interesting within the scuba industry, especially, especially as well in the higher classes, is the latent desire that people have. And in that, I mean the desire or the problem they're having, but they're not aware of the problem that they're having.
Jay (11:55.683)
Hmm.
Ben Bos (12:01.558)
I come from a marketing background. I used to sell everything. I've sold everything except houses and boats. I think that everything else I've sold probably, you know, sofas, stereos, cars, copy machines, coffee, you name it, whatever, everything, paper, everything in between. So I come from a marketing background and did a lot of courses there with regards to sales and sales technique. And a lot of things wound back to
what people say they want might not be the actual thing they need. They just don't know they need that more than the thing they express that they want. You still with me? You know? So, and the thing that's the key because if you tell me, Hey, I need a green pair of pants. And I tell you, I can just see, okay, green is not your color buddy, but, but Hey,
Jay (12:41.298)
Right. Yep.
Jay (12:58.808)
Hahaha
Ben Bos (12:59.562)
You know, geez, you asked me for green pair of pants. If I just come propping up to you with a blue pair of pants, will you try these on? Hello, I asked you for green pair of pants. You know, there's no connection. The alignment of expectation is not met. It's like, okay, this guy clearly didn't hear what I was saying, except I did hear what you were saying, but I took it three steps further than you were ready to be. So, I...
could have gone down the path and say, you know what, green would be great, but blue would actually match your shirt better or your eyes better, whatever. Go down that path. Somehow to build a bridge between your expectation and my knowledge to meet the need. Ah, wait a minute. I never thought of it that way. Maybe I do need blue pants instead of green pants. What kind of blue pants do you have? And all of a sudden, they're into the blue pants. But you have to set it up. It's like.
And I've done this a million times. I've come back to scuba diving in the technical range with regards to reaching your valves on a pair of doubles. Right. It's a very, one of these, these pillar skills that technical divers need to grasp a bit like the back kick and all that sort of stuff, right. These very existential pillory milestone things that they can do or can't do.
And if they come up to me, it's like, hey, can you help me reach my valves? Sure. Let's work on your modified frog kick. And sometimes I would just throw it out there, just throw them off a little bit because to see what they would do and how they would react. And most of the time it's like, what? No, no, no. Valves on the other end of my body, not my fins. You know, dude, open your ears. But when you then dig into it and when you start taking them down,
Jay (14:49.194)
Yeah. Right.
Ben Bos (14:57.718)
the path of, okay, let's look at this from a teacher's point of view that slowly feeds the student with bits of information so that they end up being able to make their own conclusions. That's when you have good education. So we'll come back to that later. So when you then explain to them that, okay, wait a minute, why are you unable to reach your valves? Well,
A big cause could be that the set of your back is just, that's laying on your back, is further down. As soon as you reach behind you, it's very normal and very intuitive thing to scratch forward and maybe come out a trim a little bit because you wanna move up towards where those valves are behind you. And without going into the details of how to actually touch your valves, I mean, there's other sources for that. For example, the material we have.
But you explain to them that the reason why has to be addressed first. Because if you get the reason why you can't reach your valves, then you can start to work on that reason, build it up. And then you can actually know that, wait a minute, for me to be able to touch my valves, I need to be able to do something else first, namely keep myself in horizontal trim position.
Jay (15:53.227)
Yeah.
Ben Bos (16:19.938)
being able to manipulate that bubble of gas in your dry suit. And voila, I do that via a modified frog kick because then I can manipulate my body horizontally in the water and keep my equipment where it is on my back. That way, I can then focus on reaching back with my hand and touch my valves. Now, there's other examples like this as well. It's like, okay, if I need to do a back kick,
Jay (16:41.038)
Mm-hmm.
Ben Bos (16:51.018)
People focus a lot on pulling the heels to their torso. And they're engaging all different muscles that they're used to use when they want to get their feet closer to their buttocks. Right. And if we stand upside, and that's what I usually do when I stand up beside the car in the parking lot. And I said, okay, bring your feet.
Jay (17:09.259)
Mm-hmm.
Ben Bos (17:19.138)
to your buttocks. Everyone just lifts their leg up like we do when we walk or run or jump. And exactly that is what you're not supposed to do when you do a back kick. But it's that initial neurological pathway that needs to be built with from your, in this case, yeah, your head down to your feet to move in a different way. And that's the trick.
Jay (17:29.646)
All right.
Ben Bos (17:47.182)
I think. So when we then come back to the topic, designing that into course materials, it has to be in such a way that the student can read it or listen themselves or visually see on a video themselves doing these things. And it has to be at the same time in a way that the instructor can use the materials to put their own thoughts and their own experience.
Jay (17:47.37)
Yeah.
Ben Bos (18:17.35)
to emphasize and enhance the materials in such a way that the student learns something that they cannot get out of just the course materials.
Jay (18:29.259)
Yeah.
Ben Bos (18:30.55)
That's the challenging part of...
Jay (18:32.566)
Yeah. And I think what you're describing, like a big bucket of that, it is this ability to put yourself into the student shoes, even though you're well beyond that. So it's this empathy piece of, can I walk back in the shoes of when I was learning this to apply some of that? And I always use, you know, to drive home your point about, you know, what people say versus what they, they do or what they really need.
I always talk about coffee when you talk about empathy and you talk about observation. You know, you go to a coffee shop and you run a survey and you ask everybody, what do you want? Bold, strong coffee or mild coffee or weak watery coffee. Everybody's going to say, you know, well, most people say, at least statistically, I want bold, strong coffee. Right. And then you go, okay, great. So I'm going to give you your bold, strong coffee. That's what you need. That's what you said. You need what you want.
Ben Bos (19:19.98)
Yeah.
Jay (19:28.106)
And then if you just spend five minutes in a Starbucks and watch people who order that bold, strong coffee, what's the next thing they go do? They walk over to the counter and they pour some cream in or some milk and they pop a bunch of creamy or sugars and they dump it in, they stir it up and they hold it up to their mouth and go, ah, that's it. And you go, well, what do they really want? They wanted milky, sugary, sweet coffee. That's what they really want because that's what they did, right? You know, that's the difference.
Ben Bos (19:38.443)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Ben Bos (19:45.75)
Yeah.
Ben Bos (19:53.325)
Yeah.
Jay (19:55.646)
And so if you're not able to put yourself back in that as a, as a training designer, as a content designer, education designer, in the shoes of the customer that's, that's saying, I want bold coffee. And you know, what they really are saying is they want sugary sweet coffee. The gap between how we get from a to B is that design is exactly what you're talking about is those breadcrumbs of, okay, I already know this and
it's easy for someone like you who's very experienced to just say, do it this way, right? And this is what you should do. And that leaves out that middle ground of the student having the epiphany, the student coming to their own conclusion of, oh, this is what it should do. And I think that's the magic of good design when it comes to education is that the student arrives at the conclusion that the instructor or that the designer of that education was intending them to.
Ben Bos (20:31.063)
Hmm.
Jay (20:54.006)
to arrive to on their own, but we were able to lead them down that path. And, and that's hard. That's a hard, you know, you know, needle to thread. And I think one of the, one of the keys here, and I want to talk about too, the, uh, the train, the trainer side, because that's a whole different discussion. But one of the keys here is I think, you know, understanding what is my level or my ability to practice that empathy, to practice that ability to put myself in their shoes.
to remember what it was like. And sometimes it's too far, right? Sometimes it's too far away, you know, to go back to your open water class. And you say, okay, well, maybe I can go observe some open water classes and understand what they're trying to do and what they're really, you know, doing rather than what they say in their review of the class or those sorts of things. But empathy is really the first foundation, I think, to any good design, but especially when it comes to adult.
you know, education is can I put myself in their shoes? And if I can't, then there's no way I can help them get to the outcome that I want them to get to with the level of quality that I want them to do. And I think that's a really important point that you're kind of drawing together and bucketing it into the empathy bucket here.
Ben Bos (22:08.734)
Yeah, 100%. And, and, and yeah, it is so important for instructors and educators or dive masters for that matter, you know, to, to join other classes. I do that myself. I sometimes I work together with the instructors we have here in Denmark. It's like, Hey, can I, can I join you? You know, and, and then, you know, let them do their thing and I'll just watch.
And it's so nice because some of these guys I train myself. So it would be very easy to jump to the conclusion. But what can you learn from that? Well, tons. During IDCs, we always say, when the student learns 10 things, the instructor learns 100. And it's true, because you're always evolving as a person, but also as an educator. And you have to be in that open mindset. It's like, hey, finding ways.
Jay (22:45.516)
Mm-hmm.
Ben Bos (23:05.294)
to get the point across because everyone learns in a different way. And that's the hard thing of having online educational materials. Um, if they were used without an instructor that can modulate and emphasize on certain points, uh, then, then having not, uh, an instructor there or everything is just online based. And I think skipping the theory part and just checking if the student
past a course online is too fast because they might have lost some nuances. And the way we've designed our education and continually design our programs is they all feed back into each other. That's also tricky, right? Because we work from this holistic approach to scuba diving. We have a certain core principle founded in the DIR philosophy.
which is a mindset about standardization, if anything else. And it has to be that people can dive underwater or explore underwater using different platforms, but there has to be a common thread through those platforms. There has to be a common thread in the procedures they use whenever a certain platform makes more sense, right? There still has to be a similarity.
Because that way all the training complements each other. I remember When we talked with the other students when I was over About cave versus tech class like what should come first? Should you first become a technical diver so you know about the valves you know about the gases and all that sort of stuff And then go cave diving or can you take your cave class and then later go tech diving? now
If I speak for our way of teaching, you know, both cave and tech, it doesn't matter. You can go either way, because if you go down the cave path first, and then the tech path later, you'll become a better cave diver because of the tech training after the cave clause. If you go to tech path first and then cave afterwards, you'll become a better tech diver.
Ben Bos (25:31.89)
after a cave class because they complement each other on such a level that is almost unprecedented because all our education is just built upon the next upon the previous level so to speak. It's never one step back to go two steps forward because that would just be a waste of time and money.
Jay (25:56.066)
Yeah, for everybody, for everybody involved. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I mean, I think too, the other thing that you bring up here is, how do we also think about the person that's going to utilize this as a tool, not necessarily consume it as an education? And I'll tell you, there's nothing harder for me than sitting in the front row of a training I designed, watching somebody else train it.
Ben Bos (25:58.035)
For everybody involved, yeah.
Ben Bos (26:11.65)
Hmm.
Jay (26:25.494)
and staying and learning to shut up. That was a really hard skill for me to learn like, hey, you need to be quiet and let other people teach it the way they're gonna teach it. And, you know, and let them be them. And even though you would have said it this way or you like this story here or you, you know, whatever it would be, you have your own way. That's not the only way. So it has to be big enough. And that was a big learning for me. It has to be big enough that there's room for other people to then take that.
Ben Bos (26:29.654)
Mm.
Ben Bos (26:35.33)
Yeah.
Jay (26:54.366)
make it their own and then pass it to a student. And I think, you know, some of what you're describing in that, you know, building block mentality of saying, Hey, everything's going to build on something else is also true when it comes to how you train the trainers, right? How you train the instructors in scuba to then take these educational materials, which are designed in such a way.
And then be able to apply them to a diver who's trying to take a course to accomplish X, Y, or Z. And I think sometimes in the training that that's a step that gets missed in a sense that I could, I know I've designed amazing trainings that when I teach it, it's amazing and then somebody else gets ahold of it and trains it. And it's not as impactful. And you go, Oh, well, you know, the temptation to say, Oh, well, my ego, like I'm that good.
Ben Bos (27:46.146)
Hmm.
Jay (27:46.61)
And the reality is you have to go back and say, no, I'm not, I'm actually not that good, I'm actually bad in the sense that I couldn't design a training that somebody else could take. And so I think there's a philosophical split in the sense of, you know, on one end as an educator, as an instructor, I need to be able to take content, make it my own, make it amazing, apply it, um, in the way that the student will understand it.
But as you know, if you take the step up from there, as you are, as the training director, designing the training for then me as an instructor to use, you have to design it in such a way that myself and an instructor in China and instructor Australia, instructor in, you know, Mexico can take all of that and make it their own with their own stories. And that's a tough one. Yeah, and yet still come across, still solve the same problem.
Ben Bos (28:31.746)
bring across the same point. Yeah.
Jay (28:38.042)
because ultimately UTD in this case is the certifying agency. We have to get to our standards and then say, yeah, that's a tech one UTD diver or not.
Ben Bos (28:46.866)
Exactly. Now we have tools in place that help the instructor, obviously, on this path. I mean, for years we've had what we call a playbook, you know, and it's more than just our instructor manual as you get so much with so many other organizations. The instructor manual we have is the list of standards and what needs to be accomplished in certain classes.
Whereas our playbook is a guide to how to logistically set up certain classes and to the smallest detail, like to where does your thumb go in this drill and what does your left hand do while your right hand, I mean, to the crazy, you know, to the crazy detail, which is fantastic because it really helps emphasize the parts that needs to be emphasized. And
All our training we do rests on the shoulders of the students and not the instructor and not me the instructor or the instructor trainer or not me the training director. You know, it has to be centered around the student. So what that means is that we have to keep putting things in front of the student in such a way that they when they're...
close to certification, get that final aha moment, that final epiphany that makes things come full circle. And we do this with our theory, which we set up in such a way that it complements the linking training in the confined water or in the initial parts of the classes, what we call the personal skills development. And
later than we become divers that use that in critical skills training. And that's when things become full circle. That's when the correlation between the theory, the personal skills, and now the critical skills in which we put them to the test gets complete. To give an explanation of what that is, is like the theory sets you up from it.
Ben Bos (31:07.054)
theory point of views, like, okay, what do we need to cover? The personal skills are the most overlooked development area in scuba industry, I think, actually learning how to move yourself underwater. And I draw this parallel a lot of the times to an explanation, to explain what we do differently. And
Even so many sports, it's so obvious. Right? Take, for example, swimming or dancing or mountain biking or skiing or whatever. You know, any, any sort of sports where you're physically active has a strong motory skill development part of it. I can teach you the steps of a cha-cha-cha. I can write them down. What your left leg should do, what your right leg should do, what your hips should do, what your arms should do.
Jay (31:55.807)
Mm-hmm.
Ben Bos (32:05.122)
how you should look at your partner, all that sort of, I could write that down and it is written down. And these dancing books are super complex to read. And if I sound like I know what I'm talking about, yeah, I took dancing lessons. But it's so funny because I bought one of these books, cause I mean, not because I was going down the path of buying too high waist tight trousers and...
Jay (32:18.414)
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
Ben Bos (32:34.358)
get my hair black and all the way back. But exactly, I don't have one, I'm sorry. But I was interested in how they would describe how to move your body in such a way that it expresses a dance. Because dance is about expressing emotion through movement, right? And of course, we're not going down that path that far. We're not expressing emotions with our back kick. I mean, it's not that dramatic.
Jay (32:34.678)
Yeah. I want to see you in your Flamenco uniform. That's, that's my.
Jay (33:03.446)
Sometimes, like, what do you just do that for, right? It's a motion under the water. But it's not because I put my back kick this way or that way, it's usually because my middle fingers are up.
Ben Bos (33:07.087)
Yeah, that's true.
Ben Bos (33:13.946)
Exactly. It's a different movement. Yeah. No, but it was interesting to read how they would describe the movement of the body. And I think in many ways, like I said earlier, it's about getting the diver to reach a conclusion in their own minds like, hey, I need to send these and these signals to my butt in order for me to move my legs in such a way.
And that requires a little bit of knowledge of you and your anatomy, what works together, what muscle groups are antagonists of other muscle groups and so on and so forth. And I think that helps, or at least it helps me a lot in getting the point across with moving divers underwater. And it works from that, from the very beginning, from the open water class, from entry level classes, right? When we teach them the very basics of scuba diving, which is breathing. And
How does your body react to being underwater? And as you know, all of the initial classes are without scuba equipment. It's no equipment. It's bathing suit or swimming trunks. And that is it. Nothing else. Let's first see what your body does underwater. And let's get your land brain, park it, and let's get a water brain. That's the first thing we need to do. And when that's done,
Let's now slowly introduce some of the equipment that can now do what your body wants to do underwater but help you. Let's give you some tools to make your job easier. That's what it's all about. Then that's when we can get into the fact that you as a diver should be less focused on the equipment and more focused on you as the biggest...
piece of equipment. And the other stuff is just tools that make it either more or less efficient. That's it.
Jay (35:16.002)
No, no. Yeah, and I think that that's a really, really important point is that at the end of the day, the real problem to solve, there is some manipulation of equipment, right? There is some theoretical underpinning that has to be present. But you're kind of hitting on the point that the key here is the mindset, is the correlation, is the metabolizing of that.
theory and that gear into me as the student. I remember, you know, and I think, just to finish that line of thought, the idea of then the experience of that individual, of that student is then what drives it home when they have that aha moment, when they put all those things together. The story I was gonna tell was, you know, I remember one of the key things that I've designed for a lot is the ability to run experiments.
In other words, market experiments to test risky assumptions in your business plan, business model, right? So a risky assumption could be something like the customer will log on, right? Something like that. Well, in this particular case is working in a hospital setting and the problem they were trying to solve as a team was these transmitted diseases, diseases that move from hospital bed to hospital bed, patient to patient.
Ben Bos (36:27.607)
Hmm.
Jay (36:41.67)
on the hands of the healthcare providers, which is a kind of gross thing to think about, but it's a big, big problem to solve in a hospital, and especially in a, you know, I think they had like 30 hospitals, you know, a chain of hospitals. If you can affect that, you can have a huge effect. So long story short, you know, one of the main ways that they do that is to ensure that healthcare providers can wash their hands, right, in between those visits. And unfortunately, the enforcement mechanism for that was a clipboard.
They literally hired somebody at every hospital at the stations to watch and make sure doctors and healthcare providers were washing their hands. The other challenge is that, well, how do you know when your hands are clean? So, I mean, if you wash your hands with soap that says it kills 99.9% of bacteria, well, how do you know that's true? Do you measure it under a germoscope? And then you go, okay, yep, and now I'm washing my hands and now I'm measuring it, oh, yeah, nothing's there.
Ben Bos (37:20.843)
Hmm.
Jay (37:37.866)
You know, we really don't know. It's a feel thing, right? We did the action. We really don't know if it worked or it didn't. As we all learned in COVID, right? Especially singing happy birthday to ourselves a thousand times. But the solution this team came up with was essentially you stick your hands into something and it's an ultrasonic cleaner and you take your hands out and it gives you the green light that it's clean. It's guaranteed. It's tracking these doctors and healthcare providers, so on and so forth. Cool, cool solution. So I remember so clearly.
Ben Bos (37:46.739)
Exactly.
