Jay (00:03.296)
Welcome to the Dive Table. I'm Jay Gardner.
Sarah (00:06.216)
And I'm Sarah Miller. And today we're going to be talking about the top 10 student myths for scuba divers. Let's get into it.
Jay (00:20.608)
So Sarah, we're talking myths, myths, the existence of Bigfoot, aliens, I don't know how you feel about, what is it, area, what is it, 62, I can't think of it right now, area 91, what is it, crazy alien thing. 51, my gosh.
Sarah (00:36.872)
I have no idea. I don't know where you're going. I know what you're talking about, but I think it's 51. I'm not sure. We could Google that. But yeah, myths. I think these are a little bit more grounded than the existence of aliens. Although, you know, it's a big universe out there. Who knows? But these are very much, it's area 51. We got it.
Jay (00:55.424)
It is who knows.
Jay (01:00.832)
Area 51. Okay. I was like 63. I don't remember. Thank you, Google.
Sarah (01:05.576)
Close enough, close enough. So we're talking myths and I think this, a lot of these can keep people stuck either like from not exploring, scuba diving or not developing, right? So I'm really curious, what's the first one that comes to your mind?
Jay (01:28.992)
the first one always for me comes back to a student myth that, that I hear a lot, which is I pay for my certification. you know, I think that that's a really interesting thing and it's kind of set up in some ways in the way that we do education and training in scuba, that that's the expectation. If I, if I pay for this course at the end of this course, I will be certified to that course. So if I pay for.
a, you know, let's say technical one at the end of those three days, four days, whatever the course duration is, I will be a tech one diver. And the reason I think it's a myth is because certification is an outcome of being able to execute not only the skills physically, but to understand, at least in my world, the why behind those skills to do the proper dive planning, to understand, you know, how it correlates to a real dive.
Sarah (02:08.392)
Hmm.
Jay (02:28.512)
As an instructor, what I'm looking at is, do I feel comfortable that this person has everything that they need in order to go out there and practice perfectly and be able to execute these dives? They might not be a hundred percent, you know, executed perfectly at first, but they have what they need to one be safe and to be able to now execute those dives, whether it be a tech dive or open water or, or any of those sorts of things. So I think,
We pay a better way to think about is I pay for training and certification is an outcome once I'm ready to live on that plateau of diving. So that's why I think it's a myth. And that's one of the biggest ones that I think is out there kind of in the scuba verse in general.
Sarah (03:17.544)
I am going to apologize. I did not hear most of that. So hopefully it went through on your end. I believe it. I truly believe it. So I just got back from Indonesia. You know this. And I haven't used Starlink in a while. Right. And I don't know what happened. Like there was that whole solar storm before I left for Indonesia. But like immediately after that it stopped.
Jay (03:22.624)
It was brilliant.
Sarah (03:46.408)
working properly. And I was hoping that by coming back, it's been a while, that it would be a little bit better. But yeah, I'm having some connectivity issues. So I apologize. One thing that I heard you say was practice perfect. And I think you might have expounded on that, like talked more about perfect. I don't love the word perfect. That's that's one thing for me.
because I think it puts a lot of pressure on new divers to achieve this level that is just not like, like who is, you're talking about a tech course, but like I'm thinking more of the open water diver. Like who's gonna be perfect after four dives, you know? I'm not even perfect. And I have a lot more dives than four dives. You know what I mean?
Jay (04:34.784)
Mm -hmm.
Nobody.
Sarah (04:42.888)
So like that's something that I think maybe is a myth. I'll say that it's a myth that you have to be perfect, right? Because I just don't believe that perfection exists in human beings. Maybe Simone Biles, Simone Biles is pretty perfect. I've been watching her do her floor routine. I'm like, how is she jumping 12 feet in the air? What is happening? Yeah.
Jay (04:58.272)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Jay (05:08.064)
Yeah, it's pretty amazing. It's pretty amazing.
Sarah (05:10.536)
So I don't know, maybe you cleared it up and I just didn't hear that aspect of your explanation, but that's something that I'll put out there.
Jay (05:21.344)
Yeah, yeah, it's a good clarification because we probably need a better word for it, right? But philosophically, the thought is that a course or learning puts you on an exponential curve towards what I would consider a plateau, right? So this goes back to kind of growth 101 type of stuff where our course, learning something new, whether you're not in scuba diving right now and you're learning scuba diving, that curve's pretty steep.
Sarah (05:36.296)
Mm -hmm.
Jay (05:49.728)
Right? Or you're going from, you know, a tech one to a tech two, there's a curve, right? And up that curve at the top of it is a plateau that now I am able to use these new skills, this new learning, this new knowledge, this new philosophy, whatever it would be. and I'm able to utilize it and correlate it in my diving or in my whatever for talking about not diving. And so the thought is, you know, from a course perspective,
It puts us on that exponential curve. The outcome isn't the certification. The outcome is the plateau. And so the plateau is a place where we can, and again, the word perfect is not necessarily the best one. Proper is maybe a better way, but I can now use these skills in a, and practice them in a proper, with proper technique, with proper planning, with proper, and that's kind of the word perfect, right? The, the, the quippy saying is, you know, it's not practice makes perfect. It's perfect practice makes perfect.
Sarah (06:25.224)
Hmm.
Sarah (06:39.08)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Jay (06:49.312)
and that's again, that word coming through, but maybe it's proper practice makes proper diving. Maybe you're new t -shirt for us, but yeah, I think the, the myth really here is that I'm paying for the certification. The certification says that now I'm on the plateau. No, the skills, the thinking, the mind, the approach, all of that puts you on the plateau. Certification is the outcome of that exponential curve of learning.
Sarah (06:56.584)
Ha ha
Well, and it's not, I think it's setting the expectations correctly, right? Because you can sign up for a course and it's laid out in front of you, but if you struggle with something, you may need an extra day. You may need extra training to receive that certification. So I think that's something to note there too. Yeah.
Jay (07:41.088)
Yeah, and not to beat this one up to it because we have some way of 10. Who knows we're going to get to all 10. We might have to do two episodes. But one other thing that I think is interesting is, and I just got done with the course, Essentials to Tech course, and all of the students passed with a path to completion. So we have this thing within our system that says I can choose to certify or I can choose to give a path to completion.
And a path to completion says, Hey, these are the things that I need to see as your instructor to sign off on a full pass. And so for an example, you know, the, one of the students, I won't mention his name, but his, his path to completion in this one, what's going to unlock that next plateau diving for him was really his, not his vertical buoyancy positioning, but his horizontal positioning front to back. And really it comes down to his positioning kick or back kick, right?
Sarah (08:36.52)
Mm -hmm.
Jay (08:40.256)
being in a proper technique. It's starting too wide. It needs to come together, right? And then slice the water backwards and then actually execute the kick. And so I said, you know, your path to completion, show me a video, send me a video whenever you're ready. The next two weeks, the next month, the next three months, the next six months, whenever you're ready. Send me a video of you doing a position hold drill where you shoot a line, you shoot a bag or you have a line. You know, you put a bolt snap at, you know, between three meters or
or I'm sorry, three feet, and you're able to come up to the line, stop before you hit it, back up, then come up to the line, stop before you hit it, back up, do that for five minutes, show me that video, and I'll sign you off. You don't need to come back for another day of training. That's a waste of your money and a waste of your time, but I wanna see that. And then, hey, I think you have everything else that's gonna look great to be ready for that next plateau of diving. So I think that that's a way, again, to think about it is you're paying for the training
Sarah (09:27.4)
Mm.
Jay (09:38.784)
not for the outcome. The outcome is a matter of putting in the work to get to that next plateau. And I really like that path to completion approach, which is cool.
Sarah (09:46.888)
No, it's cool. I like it. Yeah, I really like that a lot. I was going to say for my first myth, and I think it links well into this one that we're talking about, is that scuba diving is really challenging, scary, and expensive. Because talking about like, it's not, you're not guaranteed certification or whatever, like that sounds really challenging, right? It's...
it's intimidating maybe to some people, especially because you're in a medium that you're not used to. You know, people, not everybody is a water baby, you know, growing up swimming or whatever. And I like to challenge that because of the like sports that I do at least, I think scuba diving is quite easy, right? Like we have a lot of tools at hand to do the task.
It's like, it's all designed to be very efficient and comfortable and to help, you know, there are tools to adapt, right? Like you're able to, people who have certain limitations or disabilities, like they're able to go scuba diving. So it's something that's very accessible to people. And I think that's what's really cool about it. Like I just did another free diving course in Indonesia, Nusa Penida.
and I made a video about it. You probably haven't watched it, but it's like free diving is something else to me, you know, because like it really takes some strong skills and like a lot of work and personal development to become a free diver. And I think scuba diving is just a bit more approachable for people. So.
I have lost Jay at the moment, but I think he is coming back on. And so I will, are you back?
Sarah (11:53.768)
nope, I lost him. So I'll just continue talking because I'm good at that. The other part of that that I was talking about is that scuba diving is scary. And that is completely legit for people that have a fear of the ocean, anything like that. Like that's a real, that's a real thing for you to kind of confront and work through. I think Jay might be back.
I'm continuing to just talk about this myth though. And one of my things as an instructor is I love working with people through different fears. It's part of, I think it comes out of being a yoga teacher and working with mindfulness and understanding kind of where the roots of those fears come from.
I love working with people like that. So if you are one of those people that's afraid, then I recommend searching out people that are good at dealing with people who have fears, because not every instructor is. I will tell you that, not every instructor is. So something to keep in mind when you're searching for your next course. And as for expensive, yes, there are certain costs that come with
becoming a scuba diver, but it doesn't always need to be like the most expensive thing, right? Like if you're able to shore dive that reduces expenses, if you're able to buy used gear, all of that stuff, like there's ways to continue scuba diving or to do the sport and not spend a ton of money all the time. Hey Jay, are you back?
Jay (13:46.174)
Wow, we're having some fun technical difficulties today. Yes, I'm back and I caught most of what you said, which is great. You just couldn't hear me, which is all good. So yeah, I like a lot of what you said here. You know, I think I think it's true. I do hear that from people maybe when they're just starting out for sure. They haven't been diving. You know, I'm claustrophobic or I'm I feel uncomfortable in the water and it's always amazes me when I have a student who says, you know, I don't know how to swim.
Sarah (13:54.824)
Ahaha
Jay (14:17.118)
but I'm using scuba diving as a way to learn how to swim. And I think, wow, that's so incredible, right? It's a really cool thing. And so, yeah, it's one of the things too to say about diving as it relates to other sports too is diving's pretty slow, right? I mean, we're moving slowly under the water because we really can't move very fast, right, in that medium. And we can take things slow, you know, it's not like a...
Sarah (14:17.384)
Yeah.
Sarah (14:23.176)
Gutsy
Sarah (14:34.28)
Mm -hmm.
Jay (14:43.966)
pickleball or gymnastics for you're talking about Simone Biles. There's no way I can do anything. That's challenging, right? Diving, you know, it can be. And then you also think about like people that are maybe transitioning from, you know, a certain way of diving to, let's say they're looking at tech diving or they're looking at cave diving and say, that's really scary or that's really challenging or being a tech divers too expensive.
Sarah (14:51.432)
Yeah.
Jay (15:07.934)
It's the same thing, same idea. It's really thinking it through, talking to someone that does it. I hear all the time, like, no, I'll never be, it's too scary to be inside of a cave. And I always say, yeah, I totally understand. But to me, it's like such an easy dive, because it's nice, clear water all the time. And it's usually maybe there's a little bit of flow. You're not in crazy currents. The conditions are always nice.
you know, all this sorts of things. And to me, it's really nice diving. And so is it scary? It can be. And usually that's a deficit in the training, right? We're not on that plateau yet. So I love everything that you said. You can be scared, I guess, of a cave, period. But when you're trained for it, I mean, you could say the same thing about like Komodo, right? That's super scary to see the bubbles like going by you.
Sarah (15:51.016)
Yes and no on that. Yeah. Yeah.
Sarah (16:01.352)
Yeah.
Jay (16:05.214)
like crazy. and I'll never do that. Well, to you though, you go, well, if you're trained for it, it's awesome diving. It's really cool to experience or whatever. Right? So it's, it's a deficit in, in maybe let's say training and or experiencing it. that, that causes that fear. And then there are real fears around, you know, claustrophobia and things like that, that I won't dismiss, but, but yet usually when you say it's tech diving is too scary, it's really a,
Sarah (16:30.056)
Yeah.
Jay (16:34.878)
a lack of other or deficit of training or a deficit of experience, understanding what that actually is that causes that. But I like that. It's a good myth to challenge.
Sarah (16:40.04)
Mm -hmm.
Sarah (16:44.808)
Yeah. So what's your next one?
Jay (16:47.934)
Well, hopefully we don't have any more technical issues. I like this one. Never question my own safety and always trust the instructor.
Sarah (16:58.652)
Hmm. What are you saying? We shouldn't be trusted as instructors? What the heck?
Jay (16:59.23)
So I explain
Exactly. Exactly. Well, I mean, first and foremost, instructors are human beings who make mistakes. And so we're not always right. We're not always the one to to follow along and and all that. But I think again, and I also get into this one a little bit with like extends like trust your teammate or trust your dive buddy. Or I was actually teaching
Sarah (17:10.92)
true.
Jay (17:33.726)
a while back, a father and daughter. And that was one of the dynamics we had to address was on top of the surface, what dad says goes for your life. But as a diver, you are making the choice when you go under to put your own life at quote unquote risk, right? We're not supposed to be down there. And so you are now a teammate. You need to make decisions for yourself. You need to
be able to have that wherewithal, right? Where, you know, and dad, you need to think about yourself and your own safety and not throw that out the window just for your daughter. Now, will it ever get to equal teammates in that scenario? Absolutely not. Because there will always be, as a father I can speak, there will always be that feeling. But it's something to think about that we're not outsourcing our safety and the control of a dive and how we're feeling.
to somebody else and and especially in the instructor student dynamic that can happen a lot where you know I'm feeling cold, but I look at the instructor and well they look fine So you know they might I guess everything's fine. This is how it's supposed to feel if you're feeling cold and you need to get out of there like or I'm feeling uncomfortable or those sorts of things or I'm I don't feel safe, but I look at the instructor and you know I say hey I want to go up and the structure's like no you have five more skills to complete you know
We want to take some control. Yeah, which I've seen, which I've seen, you know. So always think about your safety. Yeah.
Sarah (18:59.304)
Yikes. Yeah, no, totally, totally. It's funny that you mention the dynamic between dad and daughter. I made a very rookie mistake early on in my teaching career, and my dad came to visit me in Mexico, and I did his Discover scuba diving experience. Don't recommend that. I've learned you do not teach your family, you don't teach your partner.
Jay (19:24.926)
Hahaha
Sarah (19:29.384)
Although I have had luck with teaching people that I'm dating, it's usually the rare occasion. Like it's usually just not a good idea, don't do it. But I taught my dad and it was like a fight for life to let him, to make him like trust me and let me guide the situation. Like I am the professional here. You need to stop, stop. You're trying to kill yourself, stop it.
Jay (19:45.086)
hahahaha
Sarah (20:00.776)
It was insane. But yeah, I think that that's a good point. I find that a lot of people that take the courses in warm water places tend to lean in this direction, right? Because you're always with a dive master. You're always with an instructor. Like you never have to plan your dives. Whereas people that dive in cold water or, you know, in buddy teams, like that's, you have to get away from that very quickly. Like you have to realize.
your own autonomy, right? So I think that's a great point. It's always good to have trust, but you need to think for yourself, right? Be a thinking diver as we've discussed in this podcast before.
Jay (20:47.486)
Yeah. And that's one of the unique things I think about scuba dive training. I can't think of another sport where you, I mean, maybe, no, even, even skydiving. There's probably some, but as I sit here and think about it, one of the things that's interesting about training is that we have to do it in the environment. There is no.
I mean, there are VR, have you ever played a VR scuba game? It does freak you out of it, but you're not under the water. I mean, come on, it's not, there's no skill.
Sarah (21:16.68)
No, I'm...
Sarah (21:21.224)
Yeah, I'm not into that stuff. But yeah, that's kind of, I mean, that's one of the things that makes me feel good about teaching scuba diving on YouTube. And people say like, you can't teach scuba diving on YouTube. And like, sure, I can't certify people, but I can teach certain things about it. And I've had other people, actually someone who has gone on to create a great YouTube channel, he's surpassed me in.
Jay (21:40.446)
Mm -hmm.
Sarah (21:49.608)
and subscribers and everything, like he's killing it on YouTube. But he reached out and he was like, aren't you worried about sharing this information? Like, you know, taking value away. I'm like, no, because you have to get into the water. Like I can talk for days about all of this stuff, but it does not detract from the value of being in person with an instructor in the environment, like period, you know? So it's cool.
Jay (22:11.71)
Yep, yep, yep.
And because of that, because of the fact that, like you say, we have to get in the water. We have to actually take it to every dive is a real dive. That's what we have this thing called the rules of the game. When we start to talk about training and the first rule is every dive is a real dive. There's no such thing as a follow me dive, trust me dive, any of that stuff. You are, you are on a real dive because you are, even though you're in a training environment, even if you're in the pool, you're still on a real dive. You're still under the water.
Sarah (22:37.096)
Mm -hmm.
Sarah (22:42.024)
Yeah.
Jay (22:45.502)
that things can actually go wrong. right. And so with that being said, you know, we need to be aware of our own safety. We need to take control of our own dive. It's a real dive and not outsource that. And I think that's a really good way to approach when I'm in training, I still am making a dive. And so things can, can go wrong. I can mentally, physically, or with the gear or with the environment.
Sarah (22:48.712)
Yeah, for sure.
Jay (23:14.878)
And so I need to still keep my situational awareness and awareness of my safety and my comfort and my control during a course. It's not just, I'm in a course, so everything's going to be fine. I mean, you and I have taught enough that, you know, there's times you get in the water and man, the conditions are super sub. I had to call it this weekend, actually. I had to call it, you know, super surgery, four to five foot waves. I thought, Hey, we'll get out through the waves and we'll, you know, find a nice spot.
And as soon as we got past the surge to a decent spot, it was like a brown wall of red tide at the bottom, not the top. So I said, okay, let's surface. You guys stay here. I'm going to go see if it's, you know, if it breaks up at 30 feet or if it just stays. So I went down for a few minutes looked. Nope. It doesn't break up. Came back up and said, look, I'm going to call it like this is not a productive environment for us to be in.
Sarah (23:52.168)
A... A...
Jay (24:12.318)
for training right now. And so we're going to take a lot away from this. There's a lot of video that we can debrief over these dives and our really rough conditions, but let's get home safety. I'm now the captain, follow me home and let's go. Cause now you're safe. Now I'm worried about safety and that's, that's really important.
Sarah (24:23.144)
Yeah, yeah.
Sarah (24:29.704)
Totally.
Jay (24:30.494)
All right, what's next on your list?
Sarah (24:33.064)
Well, it kind of leans into what we're just talking about. It doesn't matter who my instructor is, right? Like that, again, because I have much, I have more experience teaching in warm water places. I find this all the time that people just decide, I'm going to get scuba certified and they show up to the resort and they sign up with the next instructor who's available and that's it. And usually it's not a big deal.
Jay (24:39.134)
Mmm.
Sarah (25:01.192)
Right? Because in that situation, more than likely, the resort goer is probably going to dive once a year, if that, right? And they're going to do it at a resort, in a tropical location, like whatever. But I think it's really important to do the research and to know who you're signing up with to get certified. And
I think it's important at every single level. I think it's a little bit more important as you get higher up in the courses, like specifically rescue and dive master. I really like, I harp on this because at least in my line, like I don't know how UTD works, you know, your different levels, but I find that
and PADI and SSI and all of the kind of big players, the worst course, like the worst taught courses that I've seen are rescue courses because the instructors have no idea why they're teaching the skills that they're teaching and how to present them in a way that give them value and the student can actually come away with like knowing how to apply those skills in real situations.
So that's for me, I think really important and why I teach instructors to like market themselves, you know, to push that like personal branding because I think especially as we move on, like we're getting deeper and deeper into this digital age, like we can all have a personal brand and people can find us and actually choose us specifically as divers, you know, just like you're doing with your work now in San Diego.
people are looking for you specifically. So yeah, that's one of the things that I have seen over the years.
Jay (27:04.734)
Yeah, I think it's a really good call out. And we did an episode around, you know, choosing a dive operator, choosing dive instructors. I think if you want to hear more about, you know, going deeper into that, you can go in there. but I think you're totally right in the sense that it's not just also, you know, that an instructor's effectiveness and what their ability, I mean, I don't know about you, but I think one of the challenging things of being an instructor is
Sarah (27:11.848)
Mm -hmm.
Jay (27:32.766)
you need to be able to adapt to that student. So if the student's not learning it in the way that you're teaching it, do you have the ability to adapt and mention it in a different way or demonstrate it in a different way or use a different metaphor or analogy or drive it home through, you know, something that happens under the water? And so much of that is very hard to know before you take a course from somebody. Like you say, there's,
Sarah (27:51.912)
Absolutely. Absolutely.
Jay (28:00.83)
You know, there's only so much that you can read in a website or, or, or see. And it even gets harder when you're talking about selecting your open water instructor. I mean, cause you just don't know, right? You have no idea what good instruction is. And so often you hear someone say, you know, yeah, best instructor ever. And what they're really saying is, that's a nice person. I really enjoyed them, but they may have been a terrible instructor. Yeah. Yeah. We stayed up drinking till one in the morning and.
Sarah (28:15.144)
Mm -hmm.
Sarah (28:24.104)
We had a lot of fun drinking beers with them.
Jay (28:29.63)
He let us wake up late and we only had to do three dives instead of four. Isn't he a nice guy? Right. And he would, I look at that and go, or any professional listening to this right now and goes like, my gosh, don't take courses from that person. Right. Or whatever. But, but as you grow your, you need to think about, you know, not only, you know, the, the level of diver that that instructor is and their effectiveness as a teacher, because there's a difference between being a good diver and being a good instructor. They're two different things.
Sarah (28:34.52)
my god.
Jay (28:58.911)
They correlate together, but you could be an awesome diver and a terrible teacher. Inverse, you could be...
Sarah (29:05.32)
yeah, I've seen that so many times. Like the example that you gave of being able to adapt and explain things differently. Like I think that's one of the most important things as an instructor. And I think that's why it's so good if like as a diver who becomes an instructor, if you've struggled a little bit.
with some of the skills because otherwise, like if everything has come easily to you, you're just like, well, why don't you understand it? Like made perfect sense to me, right? That's one of the things, like one of my most popular YouTube videos is about using a compass underwater for beginners. And I explain it in a way that's very like simple, right? I don't even talk about the numbers. Like we keep it super, super simple.
Jay (29:37.598)
Yeah.
Sarah (29:55.752)
And I found that that was important for people who were beginning because I was, I remember doing my dive master course and shadowing these instructors who kept like harping on doing all this math and like whatever. And I'm like, they're not getting it. And like speaking slower and louder is not going to make them get it. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, it's wild.
Jay (30:19.806)
Using your hands more is not gonna work.
Sarah (30:25.192)
So like, yeah, I love that. I love that being adaptable, I think is huge.
Jay (30:31.806)
Yeah, and that goes to maybe some of those that are out there that are aspiring to be an instructor. It kind of goes back to some of the stuff we've said, Sarah, before about, instructor is not the next rung in your diving, in your personal diving. Choosing to become an instructor is a choice to choose to be an educator. And that's totally different than advancing your own diving. Now, will you be a better diver because you're an instructor? Absolutely. Absolutely. It will help you be a better diver in a lot of ways.
Sarah (30:46.696)
Mm -hmm.
Sarah (30:51.56)
Yeah.
Jay (31:01.534)
but it's not the next draw. It's a choice to become an educator and you have to love, for me it's great because I love being an educator, being a teacher and a coach and I love diving. So it's a perfect combination. But if I didn't love coaching, I didn't love teaching, it would be miserable to be a scuba instructor in a lot of ways. So it's a good distinction.
Sarah (31:04.296)
Yeah.
Sarah (31:22.6)
Mm -hmm. Absolutely. Totally. All right, what's next on your list?
Jay (31:29.31)
Let's see, I'm looking at my list and I'm thinking, how do we not repeat some of this? So I'm going to say the next one is, never question the buddy that you have been paired with. So it's an interesting one. And I, this came up on my list out of experience. So I've had, I had an experience in my open water class, which was as, as we've discussed at length before.
you know, not, not a shining example of how it should go, but the buddy I was paired with, right. was glued to his computer. I don't know what it was about the computer, but it was like, like in front of the eyes, right. In front of the eyeballs the whole time. And you think, okay, we're supposed to accomplish this thing that the instructor told us to go do. And this guy's
Sarah (32:15.592)
No.
Jay (32:27.294)
paying zero attention to me. And of course, at that point in your open water dives, you have no skill and no real situational awareness to deal with something like that. And so the reason I put this on the list is to say, you know, just because you get paired up with somebody, whether in a course or you're on a dive boat and those things, you should definitely be able to have a conversation with that person before the dive or after the dive about things that you
are feeling uncomfortable about. So I was not comfortable saying to that person after our first open water dive together, hey, I feel like you're not looking at me. I feel like, you know, we're not paying attention. You're not paying attention to me or that made me feel really uncomfortable that you never looked at my eyes one time, you know, or even looked in my direction. It just felt like, well, instructors, that's the instructor's job. What do I know? And so I put it on my myth list that, hey, look, you know, if you're diving with somebody, even in a course,
Sarah (33:06.312)
Hmm.
Sarah (33:14.696)
Mm -hmm.
Sarah (33:20.2)
Right.
Jay (33:25.918)
and there's something that's making you feel uncomfortable or something that person's doing, you know, you may not have the knowledge or the skill to correct it, but you certainly have the ability to communicate it. And then you can go to the instructor. Can we go talk to the instructor about this, about how it should have been, and we can both be corrected or whatever the, whatever the tack you want to take. But just because you're paired with someone doesn't mean that, that, that you can't, and you're not the instructor doesn't mean that you can't communicate how that, how it's.
making you feel or how you're experiencing that in the moment.
Sarah (33:57.96)
Well, and like you have the ability, maybe it's not, it depends on logistics of the dive boat or the course or whatever, but like you can also change buddies. You know what I mean? Like you can go into a different group or whatever. Like on my last Komodo dive expedition, I moved the teams around. Granted, I was the leader, but like you also like us as just divers on trips, like we have the autonomy, like we can.
say something like, hey, I need to not be with this person or, you know, be with somebody that's a little bit more attentive at any point, right? So like, in my case, I was moving people around based on comfort levels with the currents and just like making sure that everybody was in the place where they could learn the best and be the safest, right? So I think that's something that
maybe a lot of us who don't want to like rock the boat, right? We don't want to speak up because we don't want to like mess things up for other people or whatever. Like there's a lot of that. I see that especially with women divers, like people will not speak up because they don't want to draw attention to themselves. They don't want to cause any problems, whatever it is, but like that's not how this goes. Like we as
divers need to be communicative and to set ourselves up for success so that we're safe.
Jay (35:27.294)
Yeah, yeah. And if you're an instructor out there that's listening to this or for all your structure out there, I think that this is also a creating a culture in that class. So what is culture? It's a belief system possibly where we feel certain things and so on and so forth. And we set those expectations upfront as instructors that look, you know, it's okay to communicate. It's okay to, to.
Sarah (35:49.384)
Mm -hmm.
Jay (35:54.622)
talk about things that are making you uncomfortable. It's okay to ask for, like you're saying, a switch in the team pairings. And that to me is from an environmental and culture perspective for that class, or for let's say multiple classes, is learning how to build that culture upfront. One of the ways that I do it is I start every course with, okay, what are our expectations?
What are your expectations of this course? What you're going to get out of it. And we write them on the board, right? You say these are your expectations. Fantastic. Cool. I'm going to do everything I can to meet those expectations. If they're fair, like if the expectation is like, I'm going to come out of this perfect diver and never ever, ever have a problem ever again. We're going to discuss that. That's not a good expectation, but usually the expectations are within the range of, of, of what is achievable within the course. But then on the flip side, I said, and here's what I expect of you.
Sarah (36:49.8)
Mm -hmm.
Jay (36:54.558)
And I expect you to X, Y, and Z, right? Put in the work, come with a beginner's mind to speak up when you, you know, I always joke around with the TSA stuff. Like, you know, it's, we're going to adopt the TSA model of if you see something, say something like, well, if you feel something, if you, if you're experiencing it, if you're stuck that, that you're going to say something, I expect that of you. And I want you to do that. And then at the end of that, we literally,
Sarah (37:10.024)
Mmm.
Jay (37:21.118)
look at each other in the eye and look at the expectations I have of them and the expectation of me and we make a covenant. Are we all okay with this? Yes or no? Yes, I'm good with it. Look at the next person in the eye. Are you good with this? I'm good with this. Yes. And now we have at least the foundation for a culture of that speak up of a culture of that. So I start every course that way because I want to break down the dynamic between
instructor at the front of the room is always right and I can't say anything and students always need to follow. I want to create a culture in my courses of open communication, of discussion, of learning environment. And that's how I do it. Now, is it perfect? I don't know, but it's been working. And so again, is it working? Yes. Is it how I should do it? I don't know. Someone's going to send an email like, Jay's an idiot. But anyway, that's how my attempt at.
Sarah (37:52.328)
Mm -hmm.
Sarah (38:06.76)
There's that word again.
Sarah (38:17.128)
No, I picture you doing like one of those blood packs or like you spit, you know, like spit and then like shake. Yeah, exactly. That's what I'm picturing. No, I like it. That's cool. Yeah. So my next two, I think I can tie the two together just to get through this list. They're related, but they're also separate is I don't need more training.
Jay (38:27.07)
man. I hope not.
Sarah (38:46.024)
or as a newer diver, I don't need a refresher. And wow, like I think it comes with the cockiness of a new diver. I've encountered this so many times where they, you know, do their course, their open water course, and then they don't see the value to doing anything else because they're like, whatever, I don't need to do anything else. Like maybe they'll do the...
deep dive to be able to go to 30 meters or whatever, but they won't go through the advanced or the rescue or whatever. And, you know, and in some cases, maybe it's not necessary, quote unquote, right? You're diving in California off the coast. So like deep dives granted down where you are, you guys actually have deep dive sites, but like, you know, it's hard to find depth out where I am, my hometown.
And so maybe that's something that in your mind you're like, whatever, I don't need that. I don't need more training. But I think it's cocky. It's cocky to think that you'll never have a problem, that you'll never need to rescue somebody, right? It's a false level of confidence that comes from lack of experience, right? And the same goes for the refresher. Like some people will be like, I have
20 dives that I did over the past five years or whatever, like I'm fine, you know, but it's, it's been a year and a half or two years. And it's just like, maybe we'll be fine, right? But it's not the conservative answer. It's not the, the humble answer. So I don't know those, those two kind of get to me cause it's, I always, you know, I, I did,
A cave refresher, we talked about that a while ago, because it had been many years. And granted, I had done plenty of cave dives. I worked as a cavern guide. I had experience, but it had been a long time and I was nervous. So I got a refresher. You know what I mean? So it's like a, it's an attitude shift.
Jay (40:48.254)
Mm -hmm.
Jay (40:59.198)
Yeah. Yeah. No, these are, these are good ones. I think, I think going back to what we were explaining at the beginning of the podcast, this, you know, exponential curve or learning curve to plateau. I always think about, and I'm a separate training and refresher in my mind. When do I need more training? When I have maxed out my plateau, like my plateau is maxed out. I, for example, I can't go deeper than 60 feet. So that's I've maxed out my open water.
Sarah (41:20.936)
Mm -hmm.
Jay (41:28.83)
training, right? And enjoyed everything there was at 60 feet, my local diving or whatever it was. But now I want to go see what's down at 80 feet. Well, there's, there's an exponential curve for that. Is it a big curve to go to 80 feet versus 60 feet? Eh, for you and I, not really. But for someone who's never done it, that's, that's a lot deeper, right? Or all the way down to a hundred feet. So, you know, I think we're always in need of training when we
Sarah (41:29.96)
Mm -hmm.
Sarah (41:50.568)
Mm -hmm.
Jay (41:57.854)
have maximized out that plateau, then we want to experience more in our diving. And we need to then go back on that training curve to get to the next plateau of our diving. And it's not necessarily like I'm ranked number one, now I'm ranked or ranked, it's ranked 17, now I've plateaued up to rank 16 and now I've placto up to rank 15. It's not about the that it's about our own personal diving and our own comfortability of that plateau. And so I think for me,
Sarah (42:11.912)
Mm -hmm.
Jay (42:27.646)
You know, I always share also with my students, you know, here's my training path. This is the plateau I'm sitting on right now. And here's the next training I'm gearing up for because that's going to take me to the next plateau that I want to be on for this environment that I want to be in so on and so forth. So I think training is always important. And then I think refresher is exactly as you, as you said, right? It can come from cockiness. It can come from lack of experience.
Sarah (42:32.936)
Mm -hmm.
Jay (42:57.15)
But like I always recommend to people, look, every two years, your basic life support, O2 provider, first aid stuff has to be refreshed. That's a good schedule to think about, you know, auditing a rescue course or, you know, it'll cost you nothing to go, hopefully your agency, you know, gives you lifetime access to the content, to go back through the content and read it through or whatever it would be.
Sarah (43:17.352)
Mm.
Sarah (43:25.576)
Bye.
Jay (43:27.006)
And so keeping refreshed is not just about, you know, I haven't dove in a year and a half, but it's also keeping things that are really important. Dive planning, gas management, gas planning, rescues and emergency skills, right? A Ascents and descents, these things that we do on every single dive or that are really important to dives front and center. And we can do that on the way to the dive site. We can do that, you know, the week before we're going to to diving, we can hire someone if we've spent a while.
Sarah (43:37.768)
Mm -hmm.
Jay (43:55.998)
to give us a refresher. Man, I would love it if someone said, hey, do you offer a refresher course for your rescue? It's not a certification, but just like a day in the water to go through some of the critical skills and things. Yeah, no, but yes, let's do it. You know, let's spend a day.
Sarah (43:57.672)
Yeah.
Sarah (44:09.992)
I'm planning to do that actually. I'm heading up to the Pacific Northwest and I'm thinking about doing something like that because I find that people just don't practice. They do the rescue course and they never practice any of the skills again. So I'm planning to do that. I think it's going to be a regular thing for me as I travel up and down the coast. I think more instructors, we need to offer that more.
Jay (44:33.79)
Yeah, it's great. It's a great idea. I mean, we do things like skills camps where literally there's no certification, there's no outcome. It's a skills camp for three days, two days in the pool, one day in the ocean. And we rotate station to station to refresh on dive planning for a lecture, for example, and refresh on a back kick and refresh on an SMB shoot. you know, and then you rotate stations and you get all of that and all the different stations. So it's a, it's a cool, another way just to jump in and
Sarah (44:37.64)
Yeah.
Sarah (44:47.336)
Mm -hmm.
Jay (45:01.31)
and refresh things. So I think those are goodness that I don't need more training. I don't need a refresher. We always are in need of refreshment, whether we're thirsty or not, but we're always in need of refreshment. And we're in need of training when we've maxed out a plateau.
Sarah (45:10.056)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Sarah (45:17.096)
Absolutely. All right, what's next for you?
Jay (45:20.254)
Yeah, I think we're coming to the end here, which is good. Let's go with my equipment will save me. man, this is the...
Sarah (45:23.336)
Mm -hmm.
Sarah (45:30.92)
Yeah, you buy the top of the line, yeah, top of the line stuff, so you'll never have any problems, right?
Jay (45:36.19)
Yeah, and I brought three of them under the water. I'm redundant times three. So therefore my equipment will save me. This could be a podcast unto itself and there's a lot of good content around this out there. But what I mean by this as a myth is that the equipment is only as good as the user. So I will not beat up the dead horse here, but it's not the equipment that's gonna save you.
Sarah (45:56.64)
Hehehehe
Jay (46:05.63)
the brain of you and the team and the skill set that you have that's going to save you. And so even if you buy, like you said, Sarah, the top of the line, and I fell into this myth, open water. I said, look, they told me in my open water class, you do what your computer tells you to do. That was very, very, very clear. That's how you plan a dive, how you execute a dive. You follow your computer, whatever your computer says to do. Now,
Sarah (46:11.88)
Mm -hmm.
Jay (46:34.686)
All open water students get that message. I don't know, but that was the message I got. So I went into the dive shop after my course and I said, which one of these is the best computer? And they said, yeah, exactly. They said the Shearwater Pertix with air integration and la la and a transmitter, this is the best. I said, well, look, if this is the thing that I'm supposed to follow for my dive.
Sarah (46:45.48)
Dime shops loved you.
Sarah (46:56.584)
Ka -ching!
Jay (47:02.494)
here's my paycheck for two weeks, or for the last two months, because it's that important, right? It's the thing that controls your diet. Now, you find out later, all that computer actually, and by the way, the Pertex is a wonderful piece of equipment, I love it, but you find out that all it is is a glorified calculator, right? That's running an algorithm, and the CE on it is actually for the temperature and the.
Sarah (47:10.216)
Mm.
Jay (47:30.942)
accuracy and the depth accuracy and the timer accuracy, not for the life saving potential of that as a, as a device. And you start to open your eyes to it and you go, my goodness, my equipment doesn't matter. It's not going to save me. It's my brain and my training that's going to save me. So it's a, it's a good one. It's a good myth to challenge. yes, you know, you don't want to go by, you know, shoddy equipment that you got out of, you know, some guy opens his trench coat and says, Hey, you looking for some regulators? You know, like,
I don't know about that, but you also have to think about the fact that the equipment isn't the primary source of saving. It's what you go to when you're training and your brain kick in and out of emergency to rely on for that saving you.
Sarah (48:17.32)
Mm -hmm. Yeah, good points. I don't have anything to say on that. So we can we can keep going. You'd tick tick tick nailed it. The next one we have on our list is how I'm taught is the right way. And I think we've all experienced that because there are multiple ways of doing things. And that's something that especially we've been talking about the rescue course like.
Jay (48:22.142)
Hahaha
Sarah (48:44.872)
There are certain skills that you are supposed to learn, but there are also multiple ways of doing those skills, right? Like the way that you, Jay, as a giant man can do some of the rescue skills is not something that I can do as a small woman. Like I just, I'm very strong, but I'm little, you know? So I have different ways of doing things than you do, I'm sure.
Jay (48:57.534)
Thank you. Yeah.
Sarah (49:14.248)
And I might have been taught one way in a course, but there are other ways that are more appropriate depending on the circumstances, the conditions or whatever. So I think that's, we get into our tunnel vision of seeing kind of referring back to our first myths of like, my instructor is God, right? Like that's.
Jay (49:37.982)
Yeah, yeah.
Sarah (49:39.784)
There's this weird sort of sensation of your like thought process behind that. It's like, well, no, not at all. And there are so many ways. Like that's, I think what is so cool about scuba diving, again, saying referring back to a previous one of how adaptable and accessible it is. Like there are many ways of doing things and it's gonna depend on who you are as a diver, what you're capable of, the conditions that you're in and the equipment that you have.
Jay (49:47.166)
Yeah.
Jay (50:07.902)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and that's a really good summation. When I read this one, I thought, you know.
If the answer to the question of how you do something, like I do it the right way, and the end of that sentence is, because my instructor does it that way, we're in trouble, right? At that point, like you say. Now, the right way for you, that may be true. Right? The right way for you. So DIR is unfortunately named doing it right. And so this is coming from a DIR instructor and someone who dives DIR.
Sarah (50:21.032)
Bye.
Sarah (50:29.032)
Mm.
Sarah (50:35.048)
Mm -hmm.
Sarah (50:39.72)
Yes it is.
Jay (50:45.534)
Right? Is that is that brash right? It's so cocky.
Sarah (50:46.728)
It's so cocky. I don't know who decided that that was the name of it. I shouldn't put him on blast. I really shouldn't.
Jay (50:52.798)
we could, we'll go back. No, George Irvine. I mean, it's, it came, came out of the WKPP divers and they, and they started calling people. I mean, we've gone through this and there was a reason they were trying to make a message there that very blunt force message. Yeah, truthfully, in a lot of ways. And so unfortunately, you know, that's, that's the reputation that carries with it. So it's right for me. And it's right for how I want to dive and start right. How I want to do it. It doesn't mean it's right.
Sarah (51:03.24)
Yeah.
Right. It's all about marketing. Yeah.
Jay (51:23.294)
period. I don't think there is an absolute truth in diving and I'm constantly humbled with some of the cool things that people come up with or a way of doing. And one of the things things I really appreciate about at least being a part of UTD is that we say we are rooted in DIR, but we're open and building the next generation of thinking divers. So we want to evolve beyond our roots. And when we learn something or when data comes back or when
you know, we're in a different situation environmentally and, and that we didn't think through, but just, just this week, actually, or last week, you know, there's this whole thing about deploying a backup light where, you deploy the light and you're holding the light, right? Because your primary light that's on the Goodman handle has gone out and our training director said, I was teaching this cave course. And we ran this, you know, lights out.
you know, critical skill. And I realized, you can take the backup light and put it between the primary light and the bungee that's holding, you know, that's over the top of that and clip it off to the gland bungee. And now you have the light back in the Goodman handle. And we've never dawned on me until that moment that you could do that. And this is a much better way because you maintain your, your hands still free sitting on the Goodman handle.
And he did a whole YouTube video about, Hey, this is probably a better thing. We're going to evolve forward in the way that we deploy our backup light. And then we can stow it on the primary light that's broken. And I was really appreciative of that because Hey, guess what? We found a new way. That's better than the way we did it before. And we're going to move forward and doing it that way. So there's all scuba so young as a sport and as an industry and as all of that.
Sarah (53:12.392)
Mm -hmm.
Jay (53:18.974)
I mean, what, 40, 50 years old tops. And that's not really true. Recreationally, it's 40 years old, something like that. And so there's still tons to learn. There's tons of environments we haven't even been in yet that are gonna teach us something. And so we have to evolve and understand that there isn't an absolute truth of right in the way that we do things and be open to change. I think that's a good one.
Sarah (53:41.192)
Yeah, I think that's why we talk a lot about UTD since you're part owner, but I think that's why PADI is, there's something to kind of the openness of like, yes, we have standards, but they're very open to the interpretation of how things get done as long as the standard is met, right?
Jay (53:46.526)
Yes.
Sarah (54:08.968)
that can lead to a lot of really great instructors that make it their own and make it really effective. It can also lead to people who are just skating by barely meeting standards, right? So it's kind of two different fields in that way. But I flourish more in the PADI system just because I don't like, you know, the mentality of a lot of the DIR
systems. I do appreciate though that you guys are taking it in that way. I think that that's really smart and humble as a organization to be able to do that kind of stuff.
Jay (54:51.07)
Yeah. Yeah. And I think, and I think I agree. I mean, I think, you know, we, we come from two different, which is what I think makes this awesome that we can, we can, this is an example of a PADI instructor and a UTD DIR instructor being able to have conversations that are intelligent and not, you know, aggressive towards one another and see the value in both of those things. And I think that, that, you know, if anything, that's how it should be more. And yeah, I have a way that I do things and I.
Sarah (55:12.104)
Yeah.
Sarah (55:17.096)
Mm -hmm.
Jay (55:19.934)
We have a way that we do things, but it also doesn't mean that we're exclusive and close to evolving and learning and changing. And I think that should be everybody. So I think that's a really cool thing.
Sarah (55:29.704)
Yeah.
Absolutely. Shall we jump into the last one?
Jay (55:35.966)
The last one, is it the last least important or is just ended up as the last one on our list? I don't know. If you've hung on this long and you've listened to all of this, this is the most important one. Thank you for staying and listening through all of it.
Sarah (55:37.896)
you
Sarah (55:41.768)
It just ended up as the last, to be honest. We've just been crossin' them off, yeah.
Sarah (55:49.8)
Hahaha
Sarah (55:54.312)
But we talked a lot about perfection already and our last one is a walk away, a master at this skill, right? Like when you're getting trained in something. And I think a good example of that is what you were talking about with your student and backfitting, right? Like you can learn the technique and you can start practicing it, but you may not master it for some time. It may take some extra dives and that's not.
Jay (56:18.942)
Mm -hmm.
Sarah (56:23.272)
anything to say about the quality of yourself as a diver or the quality of your instructor either, right? Like there are certain things that just maybe don't click right away and you need more practice. So I think that's getting that pressure off early is a good thing because it's going to make the process of learning a lot more fun.
Jay (56:47.614)
Yeah, yeah. You can replace that one with, I'll walk away with knowing how to master this skill. And master is another one of those words that I, your words perfect, my words master. There's actually a book called Mastery, or Path to Mastery that I absolutely love. And that mastery stuff is like really tough to me as a word because I don't know if you ever master something, right? But.
Sarah (56:54.312)
Mm. Mm.
Yeah, I know.
Jay (57:17.47)
My point is, you know, that I'll walk away learning how to the proper technique to master this or to get better at it. And the way I always think about that is, you know, how do you, how do you have mastery over something? well, let's say one of the things that we have mastery over you and I, Sarah, and most of the people listening to this podcast, we have mastery over is our ability to walk. Right. Do we think about walking?
Sarah (57:24.936)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Jay (57:45.598)
When we're going to stand up and walk to the other room or walking, you know, to the store, whatever it would be. No, you know, you just, you just walk, right? But when we were little and we were learning that we were not masters, we had to learn it. There was a learning curve and there's a lot of people that sometimes, you know, that get into an accident or have, have an issue and have to relearn how to walk. And you can hear those stories and, and it's amazing to have to relearn those things and relearn that.
Sarah (58:01.16)
Mm -hmm.
Jay (58:15.006)
And so mastery in my mind, the correlation is when it's a background process, right? When it just happens and we don't think about it is probably where we have mastery of something. And in a course and let's just talk about, you know, the back kick or positioning kick. You were thinking a heck of a lot about the technique of that. Am I moving backwards? And really what you're thinking is why am I not moving backwards? Right? I'm so frustrated.
Sarah (58:21.928)
Mm -hmm.
Sarah (58:27.336)
Mm -hmm.
Sarah (58:35.208)
yeah.
Sarah (58:40.584)
Mm -hmm.
Jay (58:42.238)
And so it's a foreground process. It's happening in your brain. You're thinking a ton about it, right? And so there's no way in a three day, four day, seven day course, you're going to master or put a back kick on the back burner as a background process. And so again, the idea is that I'll know what the proper technique is. I'll know how to practice that technique to get to a place where it moves to a background process rather than a foreground process. And the benefit of that becomes now
Sarah (58:44.872)
Mm -hmm.
Jay (59:12.382)
I'm not thinking about that. I can think about other things, whether that be the environment or it be in the enjoyment and fun of the dive. that's why skills matter. Taking photos. That's why technique matters in diving is that it opens up bandwidth for us to, to do what we're really there to do, which is enjoy ourselves, to have that recreation. Right. So I think that's a good one. you know, I'll walk away as a master. No, no.
Sarah (59:15.432)
Exactly.
Sarah (59:20.04)
Taking photos. Yeah.
Sarah (59:31.4)
Mm -hmm.
Sarah (59:35.656)
Cool. Cool. Well, I would love to know what other people, like other myths that maybe they believed at any point in their diving career. So if you have some of those and you want to share them in our Facebook group, that's always appreciated. And I'm going to get more active on there because I sort of dropped the ball while I was traveling. And did you too? Were you not active in Facebook?
Jay (01:00:00.99)
I, okay, so I have an admission, I have an admission that I had a full four day course, you know, and those, my courses are like, you know, eight in the morning till nine o 'clock at night. They're long. And I didn't take a single photo. I didn't take a single photo, make a single post, take a single video. I just, I just failed miserably.
Sarah (01:00:19.559)
Boo!
Sarah (01:00:24.2)
It's hard. It's really hard. When you're like in that role as instructor or dive guide, I struggled with this too during my trip. Like you want to be there with people and you're active and present with them. And so like the idea of getting out of camera is so hard, right? That's okay. We'll forgive you. But yeah, if you have some myths that you want to share in the Facebook group, check us out at the dive table and you can always reach out to us. Go to
Jay (01:00:40.958)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Sarah (01:00:53.288)
thedivetable .com and you can see other episodes and reach out to our emails and all of that good stuff. Okay?
That's it. Thanks for listening.
Jay (01:01:02.494)
That's it, alright.
And we'll see you on the next episode of The Dive Table.
Sarah (01:01:09.864)
Bye!
