Jay (00:03.682)
Welcome to the dive table. I'm Jay Gardner.
Sarah (00:06.726)
And I'm Sarah Miller.
Jay (00:08.962)
And today we're really excited to be joined by Greg Hammond. Greg's coming to us all the way from, you know, the tough place to be, Honolulu, Hawaii. So congratulations on that. I'm jealous. And Greg, we're super excited to have this conversation with you and to hear more about your journey. But why don't you give a little introduction of yourself and who you are and all that for all the listeners.
Sarah (00:20.902)
You
Greg Hamman (00:21.87)
Thank you.
Greg Hamman (00:34.446)
Okay, well, like you said, my name is Greg. I'm the owner of GaySkuba .com. It's also known as Undersea Expeditions. You know, and that name is kind of a holdover from when this company was started by my friend Chris Winkel in Pacific Beach in the very early 90s. And, you know, it wasn't safe to use a name like GaySkuba .com. So over time, you know, we've kind of more evolved.
embracing that even though gay itself isn't always the preferred term for LGBTQIA individuals, but it is what people search for. So we get a lot of Google traffic that way.
Sarah (01:18.95)
You always got to shoot for the SEO, right? Like you got to hit it.
Greg Hamman (01:21.646)
Exactly. Yeah, we're very lucky. Very lucky that, yeah, that my friend Chris had the foresight to purchase that domain name back in the days of Yahoo. And we've been using it ever since. So we offer about 15 trips a year, sometimes a few more. We are a scuba travel wholesaler. So we work with different LGBTQ clubs to help them.
Jay (01:22.882)
Ha ha.
Greg Hamman (01:51.897)
implement a travel program as well as have our own group trips and we can help individuals plan travel as well.
Sarah (01:59.462)
Amazing. Yeah, I was checking out your upcoming trips and you're sending a group to Komodo actually
Greg Hamman (02:06.798)
Yes, our other reservations agent is flying out this afternoon and could not be more excited. It's really, it's, yeah.
Sarah (02:14.566)
Amazing. They're going to have so much fun. I just got back. So it's such a good trip.
Greg Hamman (02:20.526)
I heard, yeah. Yeah, you used to work there, right?
Sarah (02:24.262)
Yeah, I had a dive shop out there. So they're gonna have a blast. It's gorgeous. Yeah.
Greg Hamman (02:26.894)
Yeah, amazing diving. Yeah, they're very excited. Very excited.
Sarah (02:32.646)
Cool. So wonderful. So we sent you some questions and we're talking about diversity in this series. And I was really excited to talk to you because I am newly out on the internet and that is a scary place to be. But especially after Pride Month and seeing some of the...
ignorance and the hate that's still out there in the scuba industry and the scuba community. I just, I'm really excited that there are organizations like yours because people still don't really understand that it's not always safe for us to travel, especially in certain places in the world or for us to exist in our full like expression of who we are or with our partners, right?
So I just, I wanted to share that. Like, I just appreciate the fact that you guys are doing that. And you, like Gay Scuba, really gave me the, like, I'm nervous talking about this right now, but it really gave me the confidence and just the push to decide to do that. Cause I had people asking about it and I was so scared, you know? Like, I just was so scared to actually,
Greg Hamman (03:41.166)
Good night.
Sarah (03:58.15)
put it out there on the internet and deal with people being ignorant with me. So, you know, just thank you. That's really what... Yes, absolutely. 100%. Yeah.
Greg Hamman (04:04.142)
I hope you're finding a lot of support as well.
Thank you.
Yeah, I was honestly, I was kind of a little shocked, you know, because we have made a lot of progress, like I mentioned, since the since the 90s. But, you know, just last month for Pride Month, the new senior editor of scuba, Patty Scuba Diver magazine, Joshua Pram, as he included us and some of the gay scuba clubs in an article, posted it online. And to read the comment section is just horrifying. Like, wow.
Sarah (04:21.51)
Absolutely.
Sarah (04:34.95)
Yeah.
Sarah (04:41.382)
It was wild.
Greg Hamman (04:42.03)
still feel this way in 2024, you know? And not just feel that way, but feel like, you know, I've got a bullhorn. Let me make sure everyone knows how I feel, right? You know, like, no one cares, dude. Like, keep it to yourself.
Sarah (04:45.51)
Yeah.
Sarah (04:54.502)
Yeah.
Jay (04:57.218)
Hahaha.
Sarah (04:58.598)
Well, yeah. And the thing that I find with it is that the biggest comment, at least, that I see that isn't outright hateful, and I'm not going to repeat it, is what does this have to do with anything? People diminishing it. And my thing that I always go back to, I'm like, OK, all of these people who say this are white, cis males.
Greg Hamman (05:26.51)
Thanks for watching.
Sarah (05:27.462)
heterosexual males. And it's like, you see yourself in this industry literally every second of every day. Like you are fully represented. So of course you would see this as a non -issue because it doesn't affect you.
Greg Hamman (05:28.846)
Yes.
Greg Hamman (05:37.358)
Yes.
Greg Hamman (05:44.238)
Yeah, I think that's a problem throughout our society. There's a large number of people who feel like, well, if it's not a problem for me, it's obviously not a problem.
doesn't affect them personally, then couldn't possibly affect anyone else. So yeah, hopefully we can educate a few people. I feel like over the years, we've been able to do that with some of the visibility with running the group trips to different destinations and looking forward to more of it going forward.
Sarah (06:16.838)
care.
Jay (06:16.866)
Yeah. And I think it's interesting my voice in this, you know, maybe, maybe people don't, don't know or do know or whatever it would be. But, but I am kind of Sarah, the, the, the white quote unquote white, I guess, you know, I see myself this way, but yeah, we've discussed this, but no one else does. So that's okay. But, but I was, you know, I have, have been, and, and, and I think Greg, you, you hit the nail on the head when you say, you know, if it doesn't affect me, then it's
Sarah (06:31.494)
We've discussed this.
Jay (06:46.402)
must not be a problem. And I think my eyes started to open to that through some very deep relationships I had with some friends of mine who when I quote unquote met them, they were quote unquote straight, right? And then they went through the process of coming out and I had kind of a front row seat in seeing that process with their families and some of them have very conservative religious families and with friends, groups and things.
Greg Hamman (07:10.51)
set.
Jay (07:13.218)
And so, you know, I can speak for myself and not for all, but I think either ignorance or dismissal are both dangerous places to be for someone that's listening to this or someone that's viewing that article that you mentioned or that's engaging there because it has a real effect. You know, it has a real effect on people. And just because it's not in my experience doesn't mean I can't empathize and understand someone else's experience.
Sarah (07:34.342)
Mm -hmm.
Jay (07:43.01)
I'm really excited about the conversation. I think Sarah, we were talking about what word do I fall into in this, in these categories and, an ally was the one that was most, most put forward, right? ally, but, but I think that more folks that maybe are on the fence or maybe don't know how to be an ally or know how to speak up or how to be a support. I know I suffer from that here and there, you know, can listen to this and listen to your journey and try and find.
Sarah (07:52.934)
Bye.
Greg Hamman (07:53.55)
Love our allies.
Jay (08:12.066)
that empathy and so I'm a voice in this that does not have a direct experience, but certainly am an ally and want to make sure that the others that want to be in there can engage in that way. So I'm curious, there's the portion of the comments and you know, the keyboard and what do they call them? Trolls and all these things. What's the response on the other end for you? Maybe one, how do you receive that and two,
How does an ally or how does the support system come around you when things like that start to come out?
Greg Hamman (08:44.974)
I think when it's on the internet, you know, I typically just ignore it, you know, and let it stand on its own. Yeah. I mean, that's just, there's no, no need to engage, you know, don't feed the trolls as they say. what I would say, you know, to your question of how to be an ally, I think, you know, it would be wonderful if, if more people were willing to, you know, to step up and say, Hey dude, that's not cool.
Sarah (08:58.47)
Mm -hmm.
Greg Hamman (09:13.774)
when someone, you know, in a personal setting, especially on a dive boat, when someone thinks it's funny to make a joke about, you know, identifying as or pronouns or you know what, like it's not your place to, I don't mean you Jay, but it's not, it's none of our place. It's not even my place to make a joke about, you know, identifying as, you know, trans whatever, you know, that's, it's not appropriate. It's not funny. You know, I'm, I got plenty of things about myself that I could joke about, you know.
I don't need to have fun at someone else's expense. And so I always appreciate when allies are willing to step up. I have a very good friend and dive buddy, his name's Cliff McTavish, and he has always been a wonderful ally, straight as an arrow. And because he says, hey, discrimination is not cool, it's not cool to say the things you're saying at the firehouse where he's a volunteer firefighter, people will accuse him of being gay.
You know, like, like that, like there's even anything wrong with that. And so, so I definitely appreciate when, when allies are willing to take a stand and not just sit back and be like, you know, whatever that's, you know, that's Jim, you know. So thank you.
Sarah (10:14.694)
Like it's a bad thing. Yeah.
Jay (10:17.73)
Right
Sarah (10:31.558)
Yeah, absolutely. So I would love to get into some of our questions that we sent you just to get some more history and everything. So we got a little bit about your experience as a queer person. I don't know if you like that word, but I use it all the time. But as a queer person in the diving industry, like what has been your experience like even outside of Gay Scuba?
Greg Hamman (10:51.054)
Okay.
Greg Hamman (11:00.75)
Well, I'll be honest, you know, I'm not I'm not of that that first generation that, you know, that fought the really tough battles. You know, I I've certainly experienced homophobia. You know, I think every, you know, every queer person has, you know, especially like on dive boats. And, you know, one of my ways of of dealing with that was to go, you know, go where the love is, go where the acceptance is. And, you know, and I became very involved.
Sarah (11:08.486)
Right.
Greg Hamman (11:30.702)
in different LGBTQ scuba clubs and organizations. And I want to give a shout out to the Barnacle Busters of LA and Southern California, my mentor, R .A. Buck, who has certified hundreds and hundreds of...
Sarah (11:48.646)
Did we lose him?
Greg Hamman (11:50.158)
of LGBTQ divers of all different colors and financial means. I think clubs are a fantastic resource. They can lend gear, they can offer local diving, they have a very important place in our community. And so frankly, I had enough, I got certified in Florida. And at the time, like,
This was in the mid 90s and Miami Beach was the gay mecca of the world. And even there I would hear the really old ignorant comments about, I gotta watch my butt and stupid things like that. And so when I moved to California, I was like, yeah, enough of that. I'm going diving with this, there are other.
We didn't say queer at the time, but there are other queer people out there doing this. I'm going to go with them. And I did that. And then I found Undersea Expeditions and began traveling with them on the more exotic trips. And I'm the Remington Raiser guy of Gay Scoop. I liked it so much, I bought the company.
Jay (13:04.482)
Hmm
Sarah (13:06.662)
awesome.
Jay (13:07.906)
Can I ask a quick follow up to that? You mentioned the local clubs and I'm just curious, if you're listening out there and perhaps this is something that you didn't know existed, what's kind of the layout there? Is it common in most of the diving communities where divers are active? Is it only in certain areas? I mean, kind of where's the layout of...
of these clubs in terms of people getting involved and how they operate.
Greg Hamman (13:39.758)
Well, unfortunately, you know, they have been kind of diminishing over time, like a lot of our, even, you know, prior to COVID, of course, with, you know, just with the way people live on the internet today, you know, and, you know, there were initially there were there were clubs in every major city. And, you know, today, there are fewer and fewer, you know, barnacle busters in SoCal is definitely one of the more active ones.
Sarah (13:59.75)
Hmm.
Greg Hamman (14:07.694)
Northern California Rainbow Divers out of San Francisco, you know, still is quite active, both travel and diving locally in Monterey. So there are still opportunities out there and, you know, we are, you know, creating new internet -based communities too, which is nice because, you know, when I was, you know, back in the day, but, you know, really when there's a reason I moved to Miami Beach, I'll say.
Sarah (14:25.688)
Mm -hmm.
Jay (14:33.026)
Hahaha
Greg Hamman (14:36.558)
in the 90s, you know, and I think, you know, it's fantastic that younger queer people don't necessarily feel that they have to move to a city, especially when cities are quite unaffordable, you know, and I, you know, I celebrate anyone who is willing, you know, to stay and fight the battles where they were born, you know, because that is that can be tough and in some ways has gotten even even tougher, you know, when I was a kid, it was
Sarah (14:49.382)
Yeah.
Greg Hamman (15:05.71)
impolite to say the word gay. So, you know, other than other kids maybe maybe teasing me, I certainly didn't hear much of it at church. And unfortunately, you know, that changed. And for some reason, a lot of people think that it's, you know, picking on trans kids, for example, is fair game, which I find just absolutely horrifying. Like these are children, you know, and we all need to protect them. So.
Sarah (15:28.102)
Yeah.
Sarah (15:31.91)
Yeah.
Greg Hamman (15:34.062)
But yeah, so it's good that we have internet -based resources. We have a very active community on Facebook and a very active page on Instagram. And people are able to connect and find each other and then meet and go diving and have fun.
Sarah (15:58.886)
Absolutely. So we're having a little bit of trouble with your internet, but we got most of that. I don't know if there's somewhere that you can sit like real close next to the like, no, no, it's all good. It's all, it happens. Literally Jay and I have, I mean, I live in a van, so there's always going to be technical issues, but like we, yeah, don't worry about it. Just figured I would mention it to see if there was something we could sort out.
Greg Hamman (16:10.03)
I'm like right on top of the router, I apologize.
Jay (16:12.802)
Ha ha
Greg Hamman (16:19.246)
Hahaha
Greg Hamman (16:26.062)
Yeah, let me try closing some other windows at least maybe that will help.
Sarah (16:30.182)
There we go. I'm terrible with that too. Usually if I have a browser open, there's like 25 windows open. I'm like, I wonder why my computer's slow.
Jay (16:38.402)
Ugh.
Yeah, Daniel, we'll just note to Daniel at 1640, we're gonna have to, we'll slice this portion and pick up where Greg left off. But yeah, my wife's the same way. It's like, I look at her computer and it stresses me out just looking at it. It's like 75 tabs. Like, how do you know where anything is? Like, this is crazy, you know? Yeah, I know, don't touch it. Exactly, it's crazy. My brain does not work that way, so.
Sarah (16:56.87)
Hahaha
Greg Hamman (16:57.39)
Hahaha
Sarah (17:01.606)
like I know I know exactly where everything is
Sarah (17:08.71)
my gosh. Okay, so are we good? We continue? Yeah.
Jay (17:15.234)
Yeah, I can see Greg, I think it's just gonna be a little bouncy.
Sarah (17:18.566)
Okay. So I'm curious because I haven't, you know, I haven't been out for a very long time. And so I've worked professionally in a very, in like a different, you know, I haven't had any experience here. So I wonder if you're a, you're an instructor. Have you had any instances of like issues working in the industry versus just existing as like in the community as a whole?
Greg Hamman (17:50.382)
So, you know, I was fortunate because I bought an established business and we were a wholesaler and so, you know, money talks, right? So when I first showed up at DEMA show, I wasn't trying to sell people on this idea of Gaze Cuba. You know, we're going to charter a live aboard and fill it with LGBTQ individuals like that had already been.
Sarah (17:56.198)
Right.
Jay (18:03.746)
haha
Greg Hamman (18:18.99)
established that not only could we do it, but we always did it. The boats departed full. We weren't trying to hand space back at two weeks prior to departure. So yeah, so I was very well received right from the start, thanks to the work that Chris Winkle had put in. Whereas as an individual, like I say, if I just turn up somewhere, there's a...
a lot of assumptions being made, you know, because I, you know, I'm cisgender, I'm a big guy, you know, I look a certain way, present a certain way. So, you know, people feel like they can, you know, take liberties with what they say around me. And, you know, so even, you know, having a fairly easy time as a queer person as that goes, you know, not to say it's not been without its challenges, but, you know, I'm still.
far more comfortable diving with my own people and it's just plain more fun.
Sarah (19:25.35)
Yeah, I can attest. I believe I saw you at Dima. We didn't cross paths. I didn't know who you were at the time. But I remember thinking like, I think that's a gay scuba guy. And like, he is strong. No one is going to mess with that guy.
Greg Hamman (19:34.062)
huh.
Greg Hamman (19:39.342)
Right
Jay (19:44.802)
Hahaha
Sarah (19:47.686)
Yeah, yeah, I love it. Well, cool.
Greg Hamman (19:50.734)
So yeah, we want everyone to feel safe, you know, and part of our job is to make a safe and secure environment so that we get all of that potential homophobia and danger as much as possible out of the way long before we arrive. So, you know, I will say there are still destinations where we are not welcome and, you know, people have perhaps phrased it nicely.
Sarah (20:15.622)
Yeah.
Greg Hamman (20:19.342)
And I appreciate the heads up. I don't need to go where I'm not welcome. But yeah, so places like, I'll call them out, Dominica is an island that we have visited once. We were in fact, what happened, this is 2006, we had a trip all scheduled and the...
Sarah (20:24.486)
Mm -hmm.
Greg Hamman (20:47.15)
dive operator and hotel came back to us and said, you know, listen, I'm sorry, but you know, we got some backlash just even from booking you. And so it wasn't exactly last minute, but say, you know, four months out, I found a small Belgian owned resort that was happy to take us in and we had to switch the, the reservations and because people had already bought, you know, plane tickets to Dominica and
Sarah (21:08.262)
Wow.
Sarah (21:15.206)
Yeah.
Greg Hamman (21:15.982)
You know, and I'm sorry to say that the situation there, as far as I know, has not changed a lot. We've had reports back, you know, we even had a dive operator from Bonaire who went there and was like, you know, we're going to be there. It's going to be great. You can come back. And, you know, he got there and he was like, wow. Yeah, Greg, probably better to just continue to stay away until you're welcome. And, you know, Dominica, there are a lot of other places for us to go in the Caribbean.
You know, get your act together and we'll be back someday when we're welcome.
Sarah (21:49.414)
Right.
That's surprising. I hadn't heard about that. Sorry, Jay. What were you going to say?
Greg Hamman (21:54.478)
Yeah.
Jay (21:56.834)
Yeah, I was just going to kind of maybe dig into this a little bit because, you know, there's the, maybe the surface level of comments, right? Or side looks or, you know, just the judgments, maybe they're silent, maybe they're passive aggressive, those things that probably a lot of people associate with, you know, not feeling safe, which is true.
But then there's also, I think what you're describing, Greg, another end of that where your actual safety is threatened because of who you are, not anything else, just who you are. And so that kind of bites at the heart of this stuff matters. It's not just something to ignore or being ignorant about. So I'm wondering, when you talk about safety and creating safety, what does that mean?
for you and what does that look like where maybe there's instances that, and Sarah, for you as your journey is evolving and opening at this point, what does that safety look like? Because obviously the absence of passive aggressiveness is a given, but there are some other real things that exist that maybe not everyone's aware of out there.
Greg Hamman (23:14.222)
So I think for us, there's like I say, laying the groundwork, kind of making people aware ahead of time, what is the nature of the group and feeling them out. I'm really happy to say, I single Dominique out, but there's been a lot of progress other places like Cayman Islands, for example, many places where in the past, we were not welcome or did not feel welcome and now actively invite us to the point where I have to say, okay,
you know, that's great. Thank you so much for the invitation. You know, why should we go there? What do you have to to offer? Right. So as far as safety, I think that's another another excellent point, Jay, about, you know, where to be an ally, you know, the dive operators should not be dismissive of those concerns, you know. And likewise, again, that's something that, you know, I need to, you know,
Sarah (24:08.358)
Yeah.
Greg Hamman (24:13.102)
As a cis white male, you know, I also can't be dismissive of concerns women might have or trans folks, you know, like that's, you know, it's about listening, right? And also situational awareness, you know, reading the room, you know, and I think, you know, situational awareness is so important in scuba diving, like just, you know, kind of recognizing what's going on and paying attention.
So yeah, but largely we address it with some prep work and safety in numbers. I really feel like, for example, we catch flak for taking people to Egypt, which is fantastic diving. And anyone who's been diving for a long time is going to be interested in what they might see in the Red Sea. And then...
people need to make a decision for themselves, you know, whether they're, you know, what their comfort level is in traveling there. But there's been a lot of people where I'm able to assure, you know, we can go there as a group, you're going to be safe. You know, we've got people who care about us and will take care of us and make sure that we're safe. And quite honestly, you know, any Westerner is kind of already kind of just seen as different. So we're not really that different.
And how can we, some people are going to go to the Red Sea anyway. So how can I make it so that they are safe and comfortable going there?
Sarah (25:50.31)
Yeah, I mean, I think it always comes to that balance, right? Of like being safe and mindful of where you're going and where you want to go, but then also like living, right? Like it's that. Obviously you never want to put yourself into danger, but like we can't be afraid all the time. You know, we have to live and like you said, the diving there, I want to go there so bad. So maybe I'll need to, yeah, maybe.
Greg Hamman (26:17.582)
Join us, we're going next noon.
Jay (26:18.402)
Hehehehe
Sarah (26:20.422)
Maybe I'll have to do that. Because that sounds like so much fun. Yeah, I love hearing how you guys manage that because I know, at least for me, I'm, again, so new to this. The reason why I put on my trip in Baja is because I'm so familiar with that place. I spent the last two winters down there. I saw that you guys run a trip there and my dive shop that I work with, which I think you guys work with Dive Ninjas as well.
Greg Hamman (26:43.822)
Next.
Greg Hamman (26:50.382)
Yes.
Sarah (26:50.406)
one of their instructors is a lesbian and I'm just like, I love this. The whole vibe is great, it feels good. So I feel comfortable with that, but I feel like as an individual, I wouldn't know how to go about going anywhere else. I think I would be a little bit nervous and I love that you guys have the resources, you've been doing this for so long and that you offer
these trips and I've seen that you have, you know, women's only trips and that you're... Yeah.
Greg Hamman (27:19.214)
Yeah, we're really building off of 30 years of experiences.
Greg Hamman (27:27.534)
Sorry, I kind of got out.
Sarah (27:28.358)
No, no, you're good. You're good, you're good. No, I just love that. I love that you guys are expanding, because I think a lot of people maybe hear gay scuba and see some of your trips and maybe think that it's mostly just gay men. And so I think it's very cool that you're providing spaces for women and for all people in the community.
Greg Hamman (27:53.998)
Thank you.
Sarah (27:55.142)
Yeah.
Jay (27:57.314)
Yeah, maybe when we get into some of the diving, I think a portion of it too. I mean, one of the sayings I tend to live by is, you know, you'll tell me the whole truth and nothing but the truth the minute I see you under the water, because that's all you need, right? You know, you can see someone on the water and the whole story is there as a diver within the first few minutes of diving with somebody. And so I think again, maybe to raise the voice of the ally,
Greg Hamman (28:13.294)
Hmm.
Jay (28:27.202)
I may be wrong, but please correct me if I am. But when it comes to the diving, we're all equal under the water, right? We're all there under the water exploring something that like the Red Sea, you mentioned that we're all absolutely thrilled to be in an environment like that. And so I think again, you know, going diving as an ally with, for example, Greg, you and I get in the water together and go diving.
is not any different than me getting in the water with one of the trolls that seems to want to say their comments, right? Other than what happens on the surface. So I think maybe that's a good thing to talk about too, in terms of the diving that there isn't a special, you know, LGBTQT way of diving versus, you know, a different diving or I probably just totally messed that all up, right? But yeah, terrible, right? Ally with the bad vocabulary.
Greg Hamman (29:14.414)
you
No, no, it's all good.
Sarah (29:18.822)
It's all good.
Jay (29:24.738)
But I think that that's an important component of this too, is the actual diving and the love for that is something that unites us across all different walks of life, whatever that might be. So maybe, Greg, if you've got some stories maybe for you, this is always a really tough one, but maybe a top three dive that comes to mind, what was one of those top three that came to mind that just blew your mind from the diving perspective?
Greg Hamman (29:47.054)
Mmm.
Greg Hamman (29:52.782)
I mean, you know, I've always had fantastic dives at Blue Corner in Palau. Absolutely one of my very favorite places to dive. You know, I'm a big fan of sharks, you know, large marine life, size queen, if you will. So, you know, and so I tend to really love those destinations, you know, Galapagos.
Sarah (29:58.822)
Mm.
Sarah (30:13.317)
Hahaha!
Jay (30:14.882)
You
Greg Hamman (30:22.734)
Palau, Red Sea, you know, especially when we can see the oceanic white -tip sharks, you know, that's really thrilling. So yeah, so I'm drawn to those destinations and, you know, and those kind of really exciting dives.
Sarah (30:31.206)
Mmm.
Sarah (30:44.422)
Yeah, I am right there with you and I want to go to those places so bad. Like you just listed a list like that. Yeah, Galapagos. I want to do it so bad. But I think what I want to touch on with what Jay mentioned about us all being the same underwater. And I think that's where a lot of people get this idea of like this doesn't matter or whatever. But.
Jay (30:50.882)
Galapagos, yeah, for sure.
Greg Hamman (30:51.726)
Yeah.
Sarah (31:12.166)
The thing is that especially for people who may be interested in the sport, like I find that there is a big barrier to entry, you know, kind of like we've had a discussion about race and it's like, if you don't feel comfortable with the people who are doing the sport, you're never going to actually do the sport. Right. So like,
My trip actually came about because I was camping. It was so random. I was on a beach in Bahia Concepcion, so like in the Gulf of California. And this person came up to me and we started talking and I was telling them my life story, what I'm doing, whatever, because it's kind of what you do when you're camping on a beach in Baja. You're like, what have you done? Where are you going? What's your plan? It's like the same thing over and over again.
And, but it's always really fascinating because everybody has such a different, I mean, it's, it's wild, you know, how all of us get to where we are. and they were talking about, turning 50 and wanting to face fears and like go for the things that they just never thought that they could do. Right. And they just got so excited about the idea of facing fears and like confronting the fear of the ocean.
And I know for a fact that this person, unless they had met another queer scuba instructor, like that wouldn't have even crossed their mind. Like the whole trip came because of that conversation. And I was like, listen, I'm really good with people who have fears. Like I can do that. That is something that I feel that I am good at. And I will help you with this.
Greg Hamman (32:50.414)
Thank you.
Greg Hamman (32:58.382)
Mm -hmm.
Sarah (32:58.47)
And so the whole thing was like, just come and we'll go do this. And then they were like, no, let's bring a bunch of people and have a party and like do the whole thing together. And I think that's what's important about this conversation is people feeling like they can take a course and that they're not going to be judged. Their pronouns are going to be used properly, you know, and just be like respected as a human being.
Greg Hamman (33:03.822)
Ha ha ha ha.
Sarah (33:27.718)
And that's the thing that we don't always see in diving in that sense.
Greg Hamman (33:35.726)
I agree a supportive environment is just really key, you know, and, and, you know, welcoming people in to our sport, you know, rather than acting as gatekeepers, you know, and especially I would say for, there's a very interesting somewhat dated book now called The Velvet Rage, you know, and it talks about the experience of queer people growing up with a lot of shame and, you know, being shamed and,
You know, unfortunately, the way that, you know, a lot of instructors at least used to approach it was, you know, you're doing this wrong, right? And, you know, thankfully, I think some of that has changed. And, you know, instead, we want to, you know, we want to encourage people, you know, hey, you're, you know, yes, you know, you might, you know, I really like the way that you, you know, were able to equalize your ears, you know, you might try this for your buoyancy.
Sarah (34:13.254)
Mm -hmm.
Greg Hamman (34:34.286)
And I think that's crucial. All of us who had enough shame growing up, we don't need anymore. And I hate to see a bicycle kick as much as anyone, but the way to help someone to stop doing that is maybe demonstrate good behavior and talk about what the advantages of kicking properly might be and why they might want to do that.
Sarah (35:03.91)
Yeah, it's the compliment sandwich, right?
Greg Hamman (35:06.574)
I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
Jay (35:08.098)
That's a nice phrase for it there, Sarah. I've heard it called other things.
Greg Hamman (35:13.198)
And I can see right through it when it's done to me, but I still like it. It still makes it a lot easier to digest.
Jay (35:18.626)
Yeah.
Sarah (35:18.886)
Yeah, it's like, aw, you're trying. Yeah.
Jay (35:22.85)
Yeah. Yeah. And I would even go as far as say, I mean, I think what you're discussing there and Sarah, I think you're better with people with fears than I am because I tend to be more, we had a really hairy training session. This, just recently here, we had four to five foot waves and super surgy. And I was, I had my first teenager. I don't typically teach teenagers with me and there was real fear and it opened my eyes a little bit.
Greg Hamman (35:42.254)
Mmm.
Jay (35:52.61)
to that empathy around that, but also like knowing, hey, when we push through on the other side, this is going to be okay. Turned out it wasn't. Pushed through the other side, got through the surge and the red tide had settled at 20 feet on the bottom instead of the top because the water got warmer on the top. And I ended up, you know, thumbing the dive and we turned around and went home because it wasn't safe anymore. It wasn't productive. But I think the other thing to think about if you're an instructor listening to this.
Greg Hamman (36:02.766)
Thank you.
Jay (36:23.042)
And you think about that word shame as well and the styles of instructing. I think the key of a good instructor, one of the keys of being an instructor is the ability to create a learning environment. And that's the safety to fail. It's the safety to try. It's also recognizing in your students the way that they receive that feedback, whether it need to be in a, what do you call it?
confidence, compliment, sandwich. I've heard it called a shit sandwich, but there goes the expletives rating on our podcast. Or, you know, where that needs to come and when. And that was one of the hardest things for me as an instructor to learn coming up in the ranks was, you know, what do you correct under the water? What do you correct on the surface? What do you correct in a debrief or video debrief? And what do you let them learn on their own? And there's different levels of that.
Sarah (36:53.062)
There you go.
Well, yeah.
Jay (37:19.682)
that you have to make calls about. And so I think, again, from an instructor's perspective, when we start to talk about, Sarah, the entry or the growth of a diver who may be feeling unsafe as to be who they are, I think some of that is on the instructor in creating that safe environment and a learning environment for those individuals as well. So I think it's a good call out. It's not just the industry as the people on the dive boats, but it's also the industry
as the instructors and the teachers that are so passionate about what they do, understanding the journey there. And that's a unique insight, Greg, that you share about shame, that I wouldn't have naturally come to that conclusion. But it's good for me to tuck in my head as an instructor to say, hey, this is a good thing to keep a note of, not just for individuals like yourself, Greg, or you, Sarah, but also other people that may have other life experiences that led them to this.
feeling. So, really, really nice to call out.
Sarah (38:20.806)
It's just about being kind, isn't it? It just comes back to being kind and good human beings. And those of us like you, Greg, you have a platform and you use it for such good. And all of us who are instructors, we're all a part of this industry and change making, right? We're the role models. And so like,
Jay (38:24.418)
Ha ha ha.
Sarah (38:49.478)
If we want to see the change, we need to push the people that have voices to stand up for it.
Greg Hamman (38:59.342)
Absolutely.
Sarah (39:00.582)
So I would love to hear any other stories or anecdotes or anything else that you'd love to share with our... Yeah. Yes. Yes.
Greg Hamman (39:07.502)
I'm glad you asked because I wanted to circle back to talking about Mexico, which I think is a fantastic country, not without its problems, but very LGBTQ welcoming, which not everyone recognizes or knows about. And I have a...
A funny story, you know, a number of years back, a resort in Cozumel that we had used for years that had hosted many other LGBTQ groups. And I was, I speak Spanish and, you know, and I was sitting in the back with this, this little Mayan god of a, of a dive master, you know, and.
Just adorable guy and you know, and I made a joke like, you know, soy Maricon and he's and he was like, we don't use that word anymore. Which I found so sweet and endearing because it meant that not only had the resort taken the time to explain to their staff, you know, like what's what are appropriate terms.
Jay (40:09.89)
Ha ha
Sarah (40:09.99)
Sarah (40:15.238)
Yeah.
Greg Hamman (40:26.83)
But they'd really even taken it to heart. And he recognized that that was a slur and that there were better ways to express ourselves. So I was like, yes, duly noted, thank you. Yeah, so we have a real soft spot in our heart for Mexico, both the Baja side and the...
Sarah (40:44.134)
It's amazing. I love that.
Greg Hamman (40:56.014)
the Yucatan side, you know, hope they're making it through the storm okay.
Sarah (41:01.254)
Yeah, the hurricane is blowing through. Scary stuff. You mentioned a few other places that you love. Is there another, like, just country in general that you really appreciate for, like, their welcoming and just sort of attitude towards us groups?
Greg Hamman (41:06.19)
Yeah.
Thank you.
Greg Hamman (41:22.926)
For welcoming, I mean, you just cannot beat, of course, the Netherlands, right? The Caribbean Netherlands, right? Just taking this spirit of tolerance and acceptance of the Dutch and sharing it in the Caribbean sun is just fantastic, right? So we, you know, Caribbean Netherlands is on our schedule like constantly. The next trip is...
Sarah (41:35.494)
Mm -hmm.
Greg Hamman (41:48.398)
is Bonaire in February, so fantastic time to get out of winter. You know, airfares are a little high because, you know, everyone else in the Northeast has the same idea for Presidents Day. But but yeah, you know, we visit Bonaire, we visit Stacia, we visit Curacao and have, you know, really nice, easy diving at all those places, a wonderful place to to learn to dive and also just where you can absolutely be certain that, you know.
Jay (41:58.082)
Hehehe
Sarah (41:59.238)
Yep.
Greg Hamman (42:18.254)
shit
Greg Hamman (42:23.374)
Can you guys still hear me? okay, sorry. They started to come up, it was offered to force quit Chrome, so I got very worried there. Yeah, anyway, so yes, so the Caribbean Netherlands, you know, I'm very happy to say we go to a small island in the Bahamas called San Salvador Island, which is fantastic for shark diving. And the resort there is Family Run.
Sarah (42:24.934)
Yep.
Jay (42:25.09)
Yep. No worries.
Sarah (42:34.182)
gosh, no you're good.
Greg Hamman (42:51.566)
And one of the brothers, one of the five siblings came to me and said, Greg, I notice a difference in the 15 years that you've been bringing these groups here. And I notice a difference on this small island about people's perceptions of LGBTQ people. Yeah. And so I think that's one way where we can take our privilege of being Westerners, being mostly
Sarah (43:10.054)
Aww.
Greg Hamman (43:20.494)
you know, white folks and, you know, and, you know, and where I don't have to be as afraid as a local person would, you know, to be out in the Caribbean, in the Muslim world. And, you know, and I can, I can let people experience me exactly like you said, Jay, as a diver, right? And see like, hey, you know, this guy, yeah, you know, he's a big guy. He kind of runs through his air a little bit fast at times.
Sarah (43:31.686)
You
Greg Hamman (43:49.774)
You know, but he doesn't chase the animals, right? He's got great buoyancy. You know, he's not kicking up the sand on the bottom. He's probably an OK guy. How interesting, you know, that he likes other men, you know, and where that's just one aspect, you know, it's just kind of an aside. And I think we really have changed. We really have changed some people's.
Jay (43:49.922)
Hehehehe
Ha ha ha.
Sarah (44:04.838)
Mm -hmm.
Greg Hamman (44:16.782)
perceptions, you know, because people, you know, of course, everyone knows LGBTQ people, but whether they know they know them or not is all in, you know, it's in direct relation to how safe they make those people feel, right?
Sarah (44:33.638)
That's it. Yeah.
Jay (44:33.73)
Yeah. Yeah. I want to build on that because Greg, the way that you phrased that I thought was really important. So yeah, you know, he's a big guy. Maybe he blows through his gas a little fast, but look, he's not chasing the animals. He's not kicking up the sand and ruining the visibility. His buoyancy is pretty much on point. And it wasn't, and he likes men. So what? It was, how interesting.
Greg Hamman (44:46.382)
Yeah
Greg Hamman (45:00.59)
Mm.
Jay (45:03.682)
He likes men. And it goes back to your point, Sarah, about being a good human being. It's not dismiss. And I think that's a common thing, right? Who cares? At least he's a good diver, right? That mindset versus how interesting, let me hear about your story. And again, our sexuality is a part of us. It's not all of us. And I think that that interest and that curiosity is maybe something that more of us.
as allies, one of us that maybe sit in the non, you know, discrimination bunch or discriminated against bunch can be more curious and be more open to hear. I want to, you know, I want to hear Greg's story. I want to hear, you know, not just, so he's a diver at least. So what he likes guys that that's a still the same dismissive thing. So I liked how you phrased that. And I wanted to call it out because I think that's an important mindset shift from so what to how interesting.
Greg Hamman (45:38.529)
Mm -hmm.
Sarah (45:54.118)
Yeah.
Greg Hamman (46:00.974)
Thank you. And likewise, you know, when we're in a destination, you know, where people feel safe to do so, we love to hear the local stories, you know, again, both good and bad. And, you know, quite honestly, there's a fascinating world out there. And, you know, I'm fortunate, you know, to be able to take people to the South Pacific, you know, diving quite, you know, quite regularly. And, you know, we were just in Fiji.
Sarah (46:10.086)
Mm -hmm.
Greg Hamman (46:30.158)
And there is an entire tradition throughout the Pacific, in Fiji, in French Polynesia, in Hawaii even, of this third gender. And it's everywhere, especially in hospitality. I mean, every hotel is going to have a male who presents as a female. And sometimes they pass, other times not. It leaves people with questions. And I think also it's very important to recognize just because we have questions doesn't mean that that person deserves.
Sarah (46:38.726)
Yeah.
Greg Hamman (47:00.078)
is obligated to answer our questions. But if we can, you know, invite them to share their story, you know, we might learn something.
Sarah (47:10.918)
Yeah. Well, and that comes back to just like getting beyond this strict perspective, especially from the United States. Like we have such a box, right, of like what is quote unquote normal. And
I think, especially with social media, it has opened our eyes to these different cultures and indigenous cultures with two -spirit people and learning from everything and realizing that what I appreciate and the people that I surround around me are people that are curious and recognize that...
we don't know anything. Like the amount of knowledge that I have is like this, right? Compared to the world's collective of information and understanding of human beings. Like nothing, I don't know anything. So like why should I, why would I judge anybody? And I don't know, it's not something that is widespread obviously, but I hope that we bring more people into that fold of
of looking at that, how interesting and being more curious about things.
Greg Hamman (48:28.686)
Mm -hmm.
Jay (48:31.138)
All right, well, I have a good question to ask you guys maybe to wrap this session up. So I'm giving you a magic wand, whatever that means, but more so I'm asking you kind of, in the next five to 10 years, what are still some of the challenges that you see in, and let me redeem myself, in being more inclusive to the LGBTQ community?
Sarah (48:31.59)
Cool.
Sarah (48:35.526)
Okay.
Greg Hamman (48:49.262)
Mmm.
Jay (48:57.154)
See, I'm not completely ignorant, but what are some of the challenges you see? And if I were to hand you that magic wand, what are some ways that we can start to, as an industry and as individuals, tackle some of those challenges to make it better for those that come after us and that join the sport, let's say in 10 years versus tomorrow?
Greg Hamman (49:22.03)
I'd like to, I'm sorry, like to jump in and just say, I'm so happy you guys are addressing in other episodes race, you know, and class, because, you know, I think that this sport, you know, if we continue to be, you know, all middle -aged white folks, you know, it's just not going to survive. I think we need to bring younger people in.
Sarah (49:30.502)
Yeah.
Greg Hamman (49:49.582)
And younger people, even if they do look wide on the outside, they appreciate diversity. They want to see that. And they want to know that LGBTQ peers are welcome, even if they themselves are not. And there's a surprising number of people who were raised by queer parents.
and have queer family members and they are very much a part of our community as well. And so everyone really needs to feel welcome. We need to invite more people into this sport. And we need to as a sport also really lend our advocacy to environmental issues.
Sarah (50:15.526)
Mm -hmm.
Sarah (50:38.182)
Yes.
Greg Hamman (50:39.246)
The ocean is burning up and there's going to be very little left to see if that is not dealt with. And I think we need to all speak up as advocates of, we've got to change and change pretty significantly. Sarah, what do you have?
Sarah (50:58.918)
And that's, yeah, that's something that I find in queer spaces that like, we tend to be pretty loud about different topics. So like, I follow, I don't know if you follow Patagonia, the drag queen? No, like Patty -gonia? No? she's fantastic. She advocates for the environment, not a scuba diver, but advocates for the environment. And I find that a lot of us do.
Greg Hamman (51:15.486)
-huh. No.
Sarah (51:27.27)
push that because we see it and we know that it's important. I think if I had like a magic wand, I would just get rid of homophobia and racism and all of those things, but like that's just not realistic. What I see as being realistic is really inviting more people like you, Jay, who are not part of the community.
Jay (51:37.538)
Hehehe
Sarah (51:55.43)
but are willing to do the work and to, like Greg was saying, have the conversations. Because I don't think that this is something that posting on social media is going to necessarily have a brute force kind of thing. It's the face -to -face individual relationships that really make the difference. Because a lot of the hate and stuff is coming from individuals that have no known.
Greg Hamman (52:11.054)
Yes.
Sarah (52:21.99)
Like you were saying, Greg, no known contact to us as a community. And it makes a difference when you realize, my brother has just come out as gay. And what am I going to do with that? Am I going to hate him because I've decided that I hate gay people? Or am I going to love him because he's my brother and I'm going to learn more about this? It's those individual moments.
that make a difference and turn people from hating into maybe understanding, maybe not leaning so hard that way. And then eventually, we work and that's kind of how we've worked on getting more rights too. It's like these milestones and these steps. And granted sometimes like right now we start taking some steps back, but hopefully we in the long term, it's all forward movement, right? So it's like, it's inviting those of you that
are willing to advocate to have the conversation so that we're not having to do all of the work, right? We can't do all of the work. We need people like you, Jay, to come in and also advocate for us.
Greg Hamman (53:34.574)
May I add just one more story I love to share about Cayman Islands, which was the poster child for anti -gay tourism. I guess probably it was in 98 maybe, I think it was they turned away a cruise ship that had been chartered by Atlantis Vacations and earned themselves a terrible reputation, which quite frankly that government deserved.
Sarah (53:38.374)
Yeah. Yes.
Sarah (53:48.966)
Yeah.
Sarah (53:58.182)
Mm -hmm.
Greg Hamman (54:03.182)
and undersea expeditions and Atlantis vacations, Olivia vacations, a lot of the travel industry really tried to put pressure on via a boycott. And that was part of the formula for success. But what really, really changed was we had allies, very fierce, straight allies.
We had Pilar Bush within the Ministry of Tourism. We had Nancy Easterbrook who owned a dive shop on Grand Cayman. And these were the people who went to the government and said, this is not right. You cannot represent the Cayman people as that. That is not who we are. And that is not how we want to be seen in this world. And you're causing us economic harm.
you're causing us social harm. We don't look like a civilized nation. And really, that was who really leveraged, it was the subsequent government that changed their official perspective and invited us back. And we've been back 13 times and had wonderful trips. And today, Cayman -Allens recognizes same -sex relationships. They have a Cayman pride.
It's really amazing to see the progress in 20 years. And a lot of it, again, is A, we have to speak up for ourselves and B, we need allies standing beside us. So we're really grateful to those who are willing to have those conversations like Sarah mentioned.
Sarah (55:40.262)
Mm -hmm.
Sarah (55:47.078)
Yay. I'm so glad that you were up for talking to us and sharing your experience. Like this is just like my, my little heart is so big and bright right now. I'm just very, very happy. And, I, yeah, I think I speak on both of our parts. We're just very appreciative that you would take the time to come on here.
Greg Hamman (56:09.118)
thank you so much for the opportunity. It's been real fun talking with you.
Sarah (56:12.582)
Before we close up, you've obviously plugged Gay Scuba, but like, what do you, like if people are listening, they're like, my gosh, I have to go on one of these trips, or like, I need to follow them, I need to know what's happening, like what is the favorite way for them to get in touch with you?
Greg Hamman (56:31.278)
via our website, gayscuba .com or email us at info at gayscuba .com. You can follow us on Instagram and Facebook at gayscuba. And we just, we invite everyone to come join us in the Dutch Caribbean. Take if you're ready for it, come to Egypt and see what that's like and join us on a Nile cruise and come dive the Red Sea.
We have a lot of adventures. We're going back to the Cayman Islands. We've got a for women only trip to Grand Cayman on April and a for men only trip over Memorial Day. So please come join us.
Sarah (57:12.646)
Amazing. Thanks so much, Greg. Jay, you want to take us out?
Jay (57:16.962)
Yeah, well, great. Again, thanks so much for being on the show. And I think it's eye -opening and good to have these discussions. And I hope that this is one of many that continue to happen as we've discussed the power of the conversation and that one -to -one to transform, you know, not only governments, but Sarah, as you talk about the magic wand of the future. And so I think this is a really nice way to wrap this up.
and Hey, if you're listening out there and, you want to connect with Sarah or continue the conversation, please reach out. you can reach me at Jay at thedivetable .com or Sarah, Sarah with an H at thedivetable .com. And, we're, we're getting more active we say this every time Sarah it's just terrible. Well, we'll get there on our Facebook. That's a good way to cop out.
Sarah (58:06.534)
Find us on Facebook.
Jay (58:11.874)
Find us on Facebook. We may or may not be there, but we're getting better at it. So join us, but we definitely answer every email that comes through, which is nice. And we're getting better at the social media side. So Greg, thank you again. And again, greggayscuba .com. You can reach him and we'll see you on the next episode of The Dive Table.
Greg Hamman (58:15.054)
Thank you.
Sarah (58:34.406)
Yay.
