From Lost Open Water Student to Overhead Protocols, Cave 1, 2 and Beyond| S2E13

Daniel sits down with Jay to discuss his latest scuba training, 'Overhead Protocols,' before he officially ventures into cave diving training and beyond.

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Suffering through a dry spell without scuba diving? Grab your favorite drink and take your seat at The Dive Table every week with Jay and his guest co-hosts as they share their stories and adventures of their continuing love affair with scuba diving.

You’ll laugh at their stories of minor misfortune. Empathize with their successes and regrets, but ultimately you’ll recognize their journey as your own; where life intersects with Scuba Diving.

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[Jay]: Welcome to the dive table. I'm Jay Gardner
and with me is producer Daniel for this episode.

[Jay]: We're doing kind of a special little
series here, Daniel, that I'll let you set

[Jay]: up. But I'm excited to be chatting with
you this lovely evening and to have you and

[Jay]: your voice and all of your hair that's
not in your head, but in your beard on the

[Jay]: show. So it's the elusive producer Daniel
show and I'm excited about it.

[Daniel]: It's the more and more less elusive,
I think, is how it's going. Good man, good

[Daniel]: man, good to see you. Actually, I
wanted to start this series because it was

[Daniel]: something we had talked about a long
time ago and life, et cetera, gets in the way.

[Daniel]: So before we got any further, or specifically
before you got any further, I wanted to sit

[Daniel]: down with you and discuss the path
that you're on. Um, in scuba diving, um, there's

[Daniel]: the overview, there's the big picture
path, and then there's a, the smaller path,

[Daniel]: um, that, that you're on. Um, and
I won't give any details until you're ready

[Daniel]: to start with the story. But, um,
before we got too far down that road, um, I

[Daniel]: wanted to give you the opportunity
to kind of take two steps back, talk about

[Daniel]: where you're coming from. Up to. where
you are right now, which is very different

[Daniel]: than almost cursed almost a year ago.
I was a year ago this time. I would say it

[Daniel]: was a very different diver. So with
that, I would like to hear what's going on

[Daniel]: with you, man.

[Jay]: Yeah, that's good. So yeah, so yeah,
man, when we first met a long time ago, but

[Jay]: we won't talk about

[Daniel]: Oh, God.

[Jay]: that story. We won't talk about that.
Where you

[Daniel]: Long

[Jay]: lost

[Daniel]: time ago.

[Jay]: me in my open water class. You remember
that

[Daniel]: Wow, what?

[Jay]: as a DM?

[Daniel]: No,

[Jay]: Yeah.

[Daniel]: that was a test and you passed.

[Jay]: So that was DM Daniel, not

[Daniel]: Actually,

[Jay]: producer Daniel.

[Daniel]: the test was the conversation you
had after you came to the surface.

[Jay]: Oh man, that was not fun.

[Daniel]: Ha

[Jay]: Yeah.

[Daniel]: ha ha.

[Jay]: We won't, we won't go down that story,
but

[Daniel]: Ah!

[Jay]: I got yelled out by the course director
and a brand new open water diver. I have no

[Jay]: idea. I thought I did everything right
in terms of searching for a minute and surfacing

[Jay]: and, and I got lit into so.

[Daniel]: Yeah, well, opinions on how that should
have gone down.

[Jay]: Yeah, yeah. No, you know, it's, it's
an interesting story, because we don't have

[Jay]: to bag on anybody to tell a story. What's
interesting is brand new open water diver,

[Jay]: because I remember it clearly. And I
remember in the course that they drove home,

[Jay]: like, you know, safe divers, take your
safety stop, like, was driven home, right?

[Jay]: And that you follow your computer. Those
are two things. So I had this weird moment

[Jay]: where I searched for a minute. in one
direction because we had lost you and the other

[Jay]: teammate in a, in a nice little kick
up of silt in my face. And, um, and so I looked

[Jay]: at my watch. I searched for a minute
and then I was stuck in this conundrum when

[Jay]: I got to what are 15 feet, which was,
do I take a safety stop or do I not? Am I computer

[Jay]: saying take a safety stop? And in my
head, I'm hearing this replay of safe divers

[Jay]: do a safety stop. And so I decided to
do the safety stop thinking I need to be a

[Jay]: safe diver. So, so that added whatever
three minutes to my, to my thing. And then

[Jay]: I surfaced. So it was a total of four
minutes or whatever it was for five minutes,

[Jay]: how whatever real time was in that. So
yeah, by, by definition, I was not on the surface

[Jay]: in a minute, which was the plan, but
that was totally unclear to me. You know, it

[Jay]: wasn't explained to me. It was searched
for a minute. Then come to the surface.

[Daniel]: Yeah,

[Jay]: Yeah.

[Daniel]: I mean, I would say. Potentially some
confusion on what the priority is at that point.

[Jay]: Yeah.

[Daniel]: I mean at that point You are the lost
diver and you are fine. We just don't know

[Daniel]: you're fine and so It's your responsibility
to let us know you're fine Without but also

[Daniel]: in theory Sacrificing health

[Jay]: Yeah,

[Daniel]: I

[Jay]: there's

[Daniel]: don't know.

[Jay]: I know it was a weird one.

[Daniel]: Yeah

[Jay]: Yeah, so it was in retrospect now looking
back, I can see both sides of that equation

[Jay]: really clearly.

[Daniel]: I can, I totally understand why that
person was the way they were. Like I totally

[Daniel]: get that. But I got that at the time.
This isn't nothing new to me. Like I think,

[Daniel]: I feel like that person's probably
experienced some things similar and I was a

[Daniel]: little surprised at the reaction.

[Jay]: Yeah. So all the way from there to

[Daniel]: Yeah.

[Jay]: now, which is the funny part. All right.
And, and, um, and, and I think it's a, it's

[Jay]: a great cautionary tale, like the instructors
out there. If you're teaching an open water

[Jay]: class, that's a good thing to cover because
simply saying search for a minute and then

[Jay]: go to the surface. Doesn't account for
the complexity of, I think it was dive three

[Jay]: in open water. It was the deepest I had
been, which I think it was like 60 feet, which

[Jay]: was, you know, a big deal at the time.
And you just there's so many things going through

[Jay]: your head that you're not sure how to
react. So I reacted in the best way I thought

[Jay]: and then yeah, I got crushed for it.
So that was that was not a great experience.

[Jay]: But from there is that the tiniest little?

[Daniel]: Touch your head.

[Jay]: Yeah, yeah, basically. But yeah, to kind
of go from there. That wasn't the plan to talk

[Jay]: about that. Not to where I am now is
quite interesting. But I think specifically,

[Daniel]: Now you do the yelling. No, I'm just
kidding. Just

[Jay]: Now

[Daniel]: kidding.

[Jay]: I'll do the yelling. Yeah, exactly. Now
I do the yelling. Exactly. No, I think specifically

[Jay]: for me in my journey as a diver from
that open water class, and I'm glad I continued

[Jay]: to going and I kind of set myself out
in my first hundred dives or so in just experiencing

[Jay]: different things. Like I want to go and
see what these reefs are all about. I want

[Jay]: to go and try, you know, this type of
diving, scientific diving. I want to try cameras

[Jay]: and blah, blah. I didn't know what I
wanted. So I tried a bunch of different

[Daniel]: Sure,

[Jay]: things.

[Daniel]: sure.

[Jay]: and plan some trips that would have multiple
types of diving in one single trip. And for

[Jay]: me, the trip that really stood out to
me, you know, however many years ago it was,

[Jay]: you know, two or three years ago, two
years ago was my first time in a cenote was

[Jay]: like,

[Daniel]: Yeah.

[Jay]: Oh, and I remember it so clearly it was
in dos ojos, which it means two eyes. Um, I

[Jay]: was on what the, what's called now or
what's been called the Barbie line, which is,

[Jay]: it's funny because at the end of that,
line is actually a Barbie doll

[Daniel]: Oh yeah.

[Jay]: and a gator.

[Daniel]: Yeah.

[Jay]: Yeah, so kind of funny. But I remember
getting to go in there and you know, guided

[Jay]: dive. I'm not a cavern or cave or anything
like that. But at the end of that dive was

[Jay]: this little swim through, you know, that
technically was overhead. But didn't seem like

[Jay]: it to me, but it felt like I was in an
overhead environment, you're kind of enclosed

[Jay]: big, big open, open area to swim through.
So next, it was probably, you know, I don't

[Jay]: know. 25 yards, 20 yards, if not less.
And it just, that environment lit me up. It

[Jay]: was like, yes, this is the environment
that I wanna be in that really, really lights

[Jay]: me up for whatever reason. Wet rocks,
underwater, was it for me. Ha ha ha.

[Daniel]: rocks.

[Jay]: Wet rocks, lots of wet rocks. So that
set me on a journey to say, look, where I wanna

[Jay]: go as a diver. is I want to learn how
to be in this environment, which means I need

[Jay]: to become a cave diver. And at the time,
you know, the idea of being a cave diver was

[Jay]: like trying to become a black belt ninja.
You know, it was so far from where I was in

[Jay]: that moment, but that really lit me up
and I wanted to do that. So coming full circle

[Jay]: to that journey and that path of improvement
and personal skills development, team skills

[Jay]: development, all the things that I've
been working on. I just last week or two weeks

[Jay]: ago finished my first really, I don't
wanna say it's my first step, but my first,

[Jay]: I would say official step in that direction,
which is completing what's called overhead

[Jay]: protocols inside of the agency that I
train with, which is really the foundation

[Jay]: for then Cave 1 and Cave 2. which is
next. And so I think we wanted to talk about

[Jay]: that and talk about that journey up until
this point and how overhead protocols went

[Jay]: and all that fun stuff.

[Daniel]: Yeah, so who was your instructor?

[Jay]: Yeah. So I've had a, um, it's been a
crazy couple of weeks. Literally it's been

[Jay]: two and a half weeks straight. And this
is my first kind of day back from all of that,

[Jay]: where I took some time off of real work,
um, to focus on scuba work. And I, we had a

[Jay]: four back to back courses. So some of
these, I was teaching some of these, I was

[Jay]: assisting. And the first one of these,
I was a student in, and so, um, Ben boss, who's

[Jay]: the training director. UTD scuba diving,
flew across from Denmark. He's from Holland,

[Jay]: but he lives in Denmark. It's a funny
story that he told, I think, on the podcast

[Jay]: that we had with him. So he flew across
and stayed with me for two and a half weeks

[Jay]: here at our house. And we hubbed out
of my garage slash shop. So I've turned it

[Jay]: all into a shop now, and it is my garage,
but it's my shop. It's my scuba shop dedicated

[Jay]: to that. And, uh, we hub data there.
And so he flew in and I, you know, a lot of

[Jay]: people talk about it's the instructor.
That's true in a lot of regards. I think agency

[Jay]: has something to do with it too, because
they're, you know, the way that they approach

[Jay]: training. Um, and the, the sequence of,
so sequencing of that training is important.

[Jay]: But for me, Ben also ran my tech one
class. Um, and I just. knew this is a guy I

[Jay]: can learn from. He's done some incredible
dives. The stories that he can tell are just

[Jay]: phenomenal. And he had a way, I just
really enjoyed the way that he instructed.

[Jay]: And I learned a ton from him in that
tech combo class that I took last year after

[Jay]: Dima. And so I knew when I go into the
caves, I wanted him to be my instructor. I

[Jay]: want to learn from him.

[Daniel]: We had him on the podcast. I think
it was episode four. Right. Does that

[Jay]: Yeah,

[Daniel]: sound

[Jay]: and he's

[Daniel]: right?

[Jay]: coming back to do two more, which I'm
excited

[Daniel]: Yeah.

[Jay]: about. So, um, but we've, we've just
had some scheduling issues to get him back

[Jay]: on the show, but, uh, but yeah, he, he's
an incredible instructor, the way that he,

[Jay]: uh, explains things and relates things.
And, and it's just a bastion of knowledge.

[Jay]: Um, you know, in depth to, you know,
for me, I want to know why. And I'm never,

[Jay]: I'm never satisfied with, well, that's
just the way we do it. Or that's how I learned

[Jay]: it from so-and-so.

[Daniel]: or we've always done it that way.

[Jay]: Or we've always done it that way. Yeah.
Those, those answers just don't fly with me.

[Jay]: Um, and I really want to understand the
why behind things and, uh, Ben being in the

[Jay]: position that he's in and the dives that
he's done and who he's worked with. I mean,

[Jay]: um, and who he's learned from. Everything
down to, you know, the, the why, for example,

[Jay]: you know, we typically cut the little
dangly that is on your. wings, uh, deflate

[Jay]: a rear deflate. So, um, right on that
valve and tie two knots. And we train finding

[Jay]: the, the actual valve itself, and then
basically pinching. And then you're going to

[Jay]: have that string and the why behind that,
you know, seems like, Oh, we don't want danglies,

[Jay]: but that's not the case. The why the
ultimate why behind that is those danglies

[Jay]: will can get trapped in that hip D ring
right there. And then when you go to actually

[Jay]: dump gas, right, you can't,

[Daniel]: stuck.

[Jay]: it's stuck.

[Daniel]: Stuck, right?

[Jay]: Um, and it causes all sorts of havoc.
The crazy part is that was explained as to

[Jay]: why, I mean, every little thing has a
why behind it. And it comes back down to either

[Jay]: safety and, and the lessons that have
been learned, or it comes down to configuring

[Jay]: things for easing the team's burden in
the dive when there's an emergency or something

[Jay]: like that. And Ben came back, he's, I
got, I got a video to show you. And he showed

[Jay]: me a, a video of him doing a CCR one
class with the diver and that exact thing happened.

[Jay]: He got it on video where, where that
dongle

[Daniel]: Hmm.

[Jay]: is trapped and is making it impossible
to dump gas in that moment because he can't

[Jay]: get it loose of, of the things that are
clipped off of that D ring. So kind of interesting.

[Daniel]: interesting. I would never have never
thought about that. So that's kind of big picture.

[Daniel]: Let's narrow it down a little bit.
Talk about the training itself. Because you've

[Daniel]: had similar training to that before.
So how is this different?

[Jay]: Yeah. So it's a great question. Um, I
think within

[Daniel]: Thanks.

[Jay]: the, you're so good at this, uh, you've
done this before. Uh, yeah. So, so overhead

[Jay]: protocols, um, the prerequisites within
the UTD are unified team diving, uh, standards

[Jay]: and procedures. Um, I think you have
to, you know, have, I think something like

[Jay]: 75 dives somewhere around there. So,
you know, you, you've gotten the water. a little

[Jay]: bit, but then I think the prereqs here
are essentials, which is UTD's version of what

[Jay]: other people call fundies. But essentials
is really a personal skills

[Daniel]: That'd be

[Jay]: view.

[Daniel]: fundamentals.

[Jay]: Yeah,

[Daniel]: Fundamental.

[Jay]: fundamentals. It's really looking at
the balanced rig or proper weighting, looking

[Jay]: at propulsion. So the five different
ways or techniques for propulsion. It's looking

[Jay]: at, you know, personal buoyancy, breathing
for buoyancy skills. And it's looking at, you

[Jay]: know, your other skills. So five minutes
sense and shooting an SMB procedures for that,

[Jay]: all those things and a basic six and
all these things are, are taxing like SMB basic

[Jay]: six are taxing on your buoyancy and trim.
Right. So, you know, you're task loading a

[Jay]: procedure of shooting an SMB, but it's
really testing not whether or not, you know,

[Jay]: the procedure. but it's testing that
buoyancy balance trim while you're task loaded.

[Jay]: And so it's a personal skills. And my
essentials class was a little bit more than

[Jay]: that. You know, it was also, it was old
school instructor who I loved to death and

[Jay]: he gave it to us because we, you know,
we needed more than just a personal skills

[Jay]: class. And so we got the heat turned
up in my personal one, but essentials is that.

[Jay]: And then... The other thing that I think
kind of gets into the mix of prerequisites

[Jay]: is, you know, doubles. So being able
to understand the, the configuration of a set

[Jay]: of a twin set or a set of doubles, um,
understanding how to react to failures on those

[Jay]: doubles. Um, right. The plumbing that's
happening behind your back, all of those things.

[Jay]: So those are really the prerequisites
that exist for this course. For me, my path

[Jay]: was. No, I went through essentials. I
went through a full IDC, uh, and became a dive

[Jay]: master first with UTD. And, uh, I went
through tech, creational tech one on a big

[Jay]: course. I did side Mount, um, you know,
technical side Mount training on that as well.

[Jay]: So the side Mount doubles and, um, and
then from there, um, was presented with this

[Jay]: opportunity and the cool part about all
this is, you know, my 2023. As you and I have

[Jay]: talked about a lot and I think I've talked
about on the podcast, my whole plan for 2020,

[Jay]: 23 was I was moving and I was going to
move and get established. That was it. Like

[Jay]: move and, and get my own personal diving
established. And I was going to push cave diving

[Jay]: and all those other things that I want
to do out to 2024, because I just felt like

[Jay]: I don't have the bandwidth to try and
plan these things and figure it all out.

[Daniel]: How's that

[Jay]: And

[Daniel]: going?

[Jay]: Yeah. So I've mentioned this on, um,
on another podcast. I think we did with Sarah,

[Jay]: like my strategy for dive travel often
is, uh, I call it the coat Taylor, like, Oh,

[Jay]: you're going to, Hey,

[Daniel]: Oh

[Jay]: can

[Daniel]: yeah,

[Jay]: I come along?

[Daniel]: yeah.

[Jay]: Or, Hey, you know, I get called and the,
Hey, do you want to come on this trip? Yeah.

[Jay]: You've already, how much does it cost
this? Okay. You've already got all the logistics.

[Jay]: I got to book a flight and show up. Yeah.
I'm there.

[Daniel]: basic.

[Jay]: And so this was kind of the same thing
where it was, I mentioned it to Ben. Ben was

[Jay]: coming out here. We had multiple things
going on. And I said, Hey, well, this is already

[Jay]: happening. What do you think about adding
OHP to this? And he's like, that's fantastic

[Jay]: idea. And then one of my really good
friends who will have on the, on the show,

[Jay]: uh, in the next few weeks, I think in
four weeks or so, um, Kevin would, uh, had

[Jay]: a clearing in his schedule to come out.
So he came and stayed as well. And we did OHP

[Jay]: together. And then we have the plan for
doing cave one and cave two, which is a combo

[Jay]: class um, in Florida after Dima. So we're
going to go from Dima is in Louisiana this

[Jay]: year. We go from Dima, drive ourselves
down to Florida and then do cave one and cave

[Jay]: two, um, there in Florida with Ben.

[Daniel]: And Kevin Wood has a pretty boring
day job, right?

[Jay]: Yeah, he does. He, he gets to sit in
the cockpit of a B 52. And, and train others

[Jay]: how to how to fly that thing. So pretty
boring. I love to see pictures that he sends

[Jay]: me of

[Daniel]: You take

[Jay]: another

[Daniel]: off,

[Jay]: day

[Daniel]: you

[Jay]: at

[Daniel]: fly,

[Jay]: the office.

[Daniel]: you land like what?

[Jay]: Yeah. Although I did find out that the
B 52 does not have a restroom on board. So

[Jay]: there's that.

[Daniel]: Interesting. Isn't that what the bay
doors are for?

[Jay]: Yeah,

[Daniel]: Bombay.

[Jay]: it's gotta be a Pilot's P-valve, I think,

[Daniel]: I

[Jay]: installed

[Daniel]: was gonna say,

[Jay]: somehow.

[Daniel]: don't they have pressurized suits?
Just.

[Jay]: Yeah, basically I think P is not the
issue and we'll leave it at

[Daniel]: No,

[Jay]: that.

[Daniel]: no, I'm different kind of bombs we're
talking about. Yeah.

[Jay]: Uh, yeah, you know, so, so yeah, different
kind of, yeah, we get, we'll ask Kevin about

[Jay]: that when he goes to the show. So anyway,
so for me, um, the fact that this was even

[Jay]: a possibility was, was pretty awesome,
but I know you, you asked about the course

[Jay]: so I can explain the course, but I want
to kind of set it up with how excited I was

[Jay]: that this is even in the, in the mix
for 2023 and if things all go well, um, and

[Jay]: I'm able to form well, then I will be
a full. cave diver on my full cave card in

[Jay]: November, which is pretty exciting.

[Daniel]: I mean, no, that's

[Jay]: Yeah, you

[Daniel]: not, no. Hey, so

[Jay]: done the dive.

[Daniel]: are you willing to humble yourself
a little bit?

[Jay]: Oh yeah, absolutely, always.

[Daniel]: So I was just talking about a book
I read earlier and the case studies in that

[Daniel]: book. That's my favorite part. And
it's probably a lot of people's favorite parts.

[Daniel]: So if you had a book full of case
studies, it would probably be boring, but they're

[Daniel]: spaced out just enough at the end
of each chapter.

[Daniel]: So not that you're a case study, but
if you could maybe, I don't know, let us know

[Daniel]: when there was a time when you're
like, well, that didn't go well or. I should

[Daniel]: have done this and I should have done
that, or not that you were surprised you passed,

[Daniel]: but something along the training that
maybe you hadn't been taught yet just didn't

[Daniel]: go quite the right way.

[Jay]: Yeah, absolutely. So, uh, to set this
up, um, cause it's pretty funny is the, the

[Jay]: way that overhead protocols takes place.
This course particularly is in open water.

[Jay]: So we're not actually in an overhead
environment and the goal of this course, it's

[Jay]: a prerequisite to either rec penetration
or cave diving is really to teach us the protocols

[Jay]: for. that type of diving in an open water,
quote unquote, safe environment where we can

[Jay]: surface in 20 feet of water, surface,
talk about it, go back down. So essentially

[Jay]: the setup here is that a cave quote unquote
gets built. So a line is run, a main line is

[Jay]: run in open water. And we are learning
the protocols for following that main line

[Jay]: to making jumps to marking, you know,
those jumps to. Um, you know, setting a, just

[Jay]: even getting into the cave, right. You,
you tie, you take a reel and you tie a, a primary

[Jay]: tie off and you do a secondary tie off
and there's depths and requirements that we

[Jay]: want for that. That are ideal. And so
it's, it's learning how to deal with all that

[Jay]: to, to read the navigation of a cave
or to lay line in a wreck, right? The, the

[Jay]: number one rule in cave diving is a continuous
line to the surface, right? Your continuous

[Jay]: line to the surface, a path back. the
surface. So we're planning it from the exit.

[Jay]: And so there's a lot that you're learning
in how to read, what do opposing arrows mean,

[Jay]: for example? How do we mark our exit
side? How do we tie into the main line? So

[Jay]: there's these sorts of things that are
happening. And it's cool because it's all happening

[Jay]: in open water. And so we can get a ton
done in a day. four or five days, but we can

[Jay]: get a ton done over the course of a day
because we're not diving down inside of the

[Jay]: cave and trying to figure this stuff
out. We're doing it right there in open water.

[Jay]: And then you're also learning how to
deal with failures. So everything from, you

[Jay]: know, a valve bubbles on the back of
your, on your back. And how do you respond

[Jay]: to that as a team? How do you reposition
to, you know, a lost diver or lost teammate?

[Jay]: How do you actually deal with that? What
are some protocols there? And to get to your

[Jay]: humble pie here, one of those failures
is what's called a lost line drill, or what

[Jay]: happens if you lose the line in a no
visibility situation. So set the scene a little

[Jay]: bit here. We're in open water in San
Diego, which in our case, we went to this awesome

[Jay]: dive site called Marine Room, which is
in La Jolla. And the weird part about it all

[Jay]: was that there was surge. So you're dealing
with surge, which you wouldn't be dealing with

[Jay]: in a cave environment, right? I mean,
maybe some flow, but you're definitely not

[Jay]: going to probably deal with surge unless
you're in an ocean cave. And even then, you

[Jay]: know, it's not going to be like an open
water search. So the surge would pick up of

[Jay]: course, at the most inopportune times.
And you just have to learn when you're diving

[Jay]: in surge, as a lot of people that dive
in surge know, like. Yes, it's going to blow

[Jay]: you 10 feet that way, but then a minute
later, it's going to bring you right back.

[Jay]: So just chill out, let it do its thing
and then continue. But it makes following the

[Jay]: line kind of far

[Daniel]: Ha ha

[Jay]: right.

[Daniel]: ha.

[Jay]: And all these sorts of things. So it
was, it was a good challenge, something that,

[Jay]: um, that we had a lot of fun with for,
for all the times that we were diving there,

[Jay]: but in this particular instance, a lost
line drill, the protocol for that is simply,

[Jay]: you know, get to the bottom, essentially
find something to ground on. And you take out

[Jay]: your safety spool and you find something
to tie off to. And in our case, you tie off

[Jay]: that primary tie and you try to find
the secondary tie. So that way you have directional

[Jay]: view in your search. So you can have
a line. And then from that line, you can say,

[Jay]: okay, I'm gonna search this way. And
literally it's just kind of roll the spool

[Jay]: out a little bit. search with your hand,
roll it out a little bit more, search with

[Jay]: your hand, right. And go as, go as far
as you think, okay, this is not going anywhere.

[Jay]: And then roll it back up and now you
have directional case search that way. I'll

[Jay]: search the other way. Right. So on and
so forth until in a lot of ways you get lucky,

[Jay]: uh, you know, and unfortunately that's,
that's the, there's no protocol for, you know,

[Jay]: I can't see and you'll find the line
this way. You have to search for it. So to,

[Jay]: to do these drills, um, we then get put
into a blackout mask. So

[Daniel]: I was

[Jay]: we

[Daniel]: going to

[Jay]: can't

[Daniel]: ask you

[Jay]: see

[Daniel]: about

[Jay]: anything.

[Daniel]: that actually.

[Jay]: Yeah,

[Daniel]: Yeah.

[Jay]: so no visibility. So literally we get,
it's always fun to see your instructor pull

[Jay]: out the mask and go, hey, here it is.
And you're like, oh man, here we go.

[Daniel]: I

[Jay]: So

[Daniel]: was hoping you were going to forget
this part.

[Jay]: yeah, he asks you, here you go, put the
mask on. So you put it on and then when we're

[Jay]: ready, you pull it over and then all
of a sudden it's all black. I mean, you really

[Jay]: can't see anything. And for me, I'm sure
some people might cheat and have a little.

[Jay]: You know, I want, I want it blacked out
because I want to know what this would feel

[Jay]: like. And so to, to add a little bit
more to the mix, um, then we kind of get disoriented.

[Jay]: So we get spun around. So we don't, you
know, we're disoriented like it. I mean, you

[Jay]: wouldn't probably get completely spun
around in a cave like this, but it's disorienting

[Jay]: when the lights go out. So it gets spun
around, flipped upside down or whatever. And

[Jay]: then bam, the drill starts. So boom.
Okay. I have no idea where I am. Right. I have

[Jay]: no idea. I'm no sense of what's, you
know, left right around me, a sense of what's

[Jay]: up and down because I breathe myself
down to the bottom and go okay. And so I start

[Jay]: searching. And in this instance, there
just wasn't great, anything to grab on to that

[Jay]: I felt like I could tie off to and so
I'm searching, searching. And of course, as

[Jay]: soon as this kind of starts, the search
picks

[Daniel]: search.

[Jay]: up like crazy.

[Daniel]: Knew it.

[Jay]: So boom, I find something. I found something
finally, a rock. I'm like, yes, this is it.

[Jay]: And then boom, I'm blown 20 feet that
way. I'm like, okay, I hope I come back 20

[Jay]: feet the same way. And boom, I come back.
Oh, it's not there anymore. Great. So I'm looking,

[Jay]: and I have to admit, like in those moments,
even though I know I'm in 20 feet, like, logically,

[Jay]: I know I'm in 20 feet of water. I'm in
a blackout mask. You're everything's fine.

[Jay]: My instructor's right there. and knows
where I am, you still feel that panic a little

[Jay]: bit that rises up, like I don't know
where I am, I can't see, this surge is crazy

[Jay]: because I really have no idea where I
am, and I can't get this tie-off to happen.

[Jay]: I just can't find something to tie off
on. And so this goes on what felt like an hour

[Jay]: to me. It's probably three minutes, four
minutes when you look at the video, but it

[Jay]: felt like an hour and I had a few of
those moments where it was just like, okay,

[Jay]: stop and breathe, like stop and breathe.
Like that panic was, I wouldn't say I'm panicked,

[Jay]: but that feeling was setting in. I'm
just like, woo, you know, this is tough. And

[Jay]: so finally I found a, you know, I tried
a few different times to tie off on something

[Jay]: and get blown off of it or my tie off,
you know, just wouldn't, it wouldn't sit in

[Jay]: the spot that I thought was working.
Finally, I found, I don't know, something that

[Jay]: was bigger, like big. big rock it felt
like and I just held on.

[Daniel]: Hahaha.

[Jay]: I held on to it and it blew me this way
and it blew me that way and I'm just working

[Jay]: with my safety spool and got that thing
wrapped around that rock, the big old rock

[Jay]: rolled around, tied it off finally and
then I went searching for the secondary tie

[Jay]: off and found something and was just
able to wrap it real quick around there before

[Jay]: the surge blew me. And then I go off
on my search. That's that, no, no. And then

[Jay]: I get tapped like, okay, you're out.
I never found the line. And so it felt like

[Jay]: I failed, you know, I never found the
line. Whereas my teammate had found the line

[Jay]: in his drill. And we look back at the
video in the video review after all this. And

[Jay]: again, it felt

[Daniel]: close

[Jay]: like

[Daniel]: for you.

[Jay]: the line was like,

[Daniel]: Oh.

[Jay]: if, if you're looking at me right now
on the video, or if you're at home listening

[Jay]: to, or in the car listening to the radio,
imagine the big rock. Um, And I went right

[Jay]: when I went to go look. I don't know
why, but that's where I went. The line was

[Jay]: actually tied to the big rock directly
to my left. So if I had just like even held

[Jay]: onto the rock and done a little search
with my left, I would have found the line.

[Jay]: But I went way off in the wrong direction,
which is again, in a no vis situation, how

[Jay]: in the world would you know, because
you're disoriented. So that one, it taught

[Jay]: me. It had been a minute since I'd been
in a situation where it felt like I don't,

[Jay]: I don't have, it's not that I didn't
have control is that I am not in control of

[Jay]: the situation. I'm disoriented. I can't
see, don't know where the line is and I can't

[Jay]: tie off. And it felt like usually you
could force yourself into like, you know, the

[Jay]: situation like fine, like breathe out,
whatever. So feeling that brought back that

[Jay]: feeling of saying, okay, when all this
stuff happens, remember the primal thing is

[Jay]: to breathe and stop. And it's okay that
you're feeling this, but breathe and yeah.

[Daniel]: There's a couple things going on there,
right? So there's the humility of it all, right?

[Daniel]: If you are one who thinks they know
more than they do, maybe ego is a little bit

[Daniel]: bigger, and then the water is the
great equalizer, right? And if, you know, if

[Daniel]: there would probably be some people
out there who would look back at that video,

[Daniel]: see that the line was tied off on
the left and say, Oh, that was dumb. Not that

[Daniel]: they went right instead of left, but
why is the lion tied off on the left or not

[Daniel]: blaming or taking responsibility for
themselves? And how many times has ego or complacency,

[Daniel]: not to bring it down a notch, but
how many times has that killed the diver? Because

[Daniel]: they didn't have the proper training
going into a scenario that they shouldn't have

[Daniel]: been in, or they didn't have the complete
training, or... They just thought everything

[Daniel]: was fine. They didn't need to do double
checks, triple checks, redundancies, any of

[Daniel]: that. So I think it's just a healthy,
anytime we're in a situation where we're in

[Daniel]: that situation to learn in the first
place. And if we get it right the first time,

[Daniel]: we're not learning anything. So with
the failures comes the learning. And it always

[Daniel]: helps to have that humble pie every
once in a while.

[Jay]: Yeah. I mean, I think on top of that,
I think putting yourselves yourself in that

[Jay]: situation in a safe environment, right?
So experiencing

[Daniel]: Yeah.

[Jay]: these things in a safe environment gives
you then a reference point when this might

[Jay]: happen for you. Hope to God, it never
happens. Right. And you do everything in your

[Jay]: training to make sure that you don't
end up in that situation. Right. Um, in a,

[Jay]: in a complete lost line, no vis situation,
but when it happens, my brain and my body have

[Jay]: a reference point to refer to even as,
you know, far back as whatever this happens

[Jay]: five years from now, there's still some
experience that I'm carrying with me because

[Jay]: I've trained it and we'll continue to
train it. These, this is not over cave one,

[Jay]: cave two. We do the same thing. Um, in,
in the environment at that point. So, I mean,

[Jay]: I can't stress enough that for me, when
you have experiences or experiential training,

[Jay]: that one of the rules that I love at
UTD is that there are no training dives, all

[Jay]: dives are real dives, because we're diving.
And that's something that's unique about scuba

[Jay]: diving in general, is that when there
is no simulator, So you're learning to fly

[Jay]: a plane, you can get in a simulator and
crash it 50 times, which is exactly what I'll

[Jay]: do when I get in Kevin's B-52 simulator
at some point. Because he said I could do that

[Daniel]: When does

[Jay]: at some

[Daniel]: that

[Jay]: point.

[Daniel]: happen? Because I will be there.

[Jay]: Yeah, exactly. I'm sure I'm gonna crash
the plane, but so what?

[Daniel]: Yeah.

[Jay]: Right, at that point, I'm not in the
environment. If you're learning to skydive,

[Jay]: you don't start by jumping out of a plane
by yourself, right? You going tandem. You're

[Jay]: now there's indoor skydiving teach you
a lot of the stuff, right? There's all these

[Jay]: things, almost everything else that you
train. There's, there's a way to simulate that

[Jay]: because it's all on land. Well, when
we do diving by the nature of diving, we are

[Jay]: in the environment. We are under the
water, even if it's 10 feet of water, we're

[Jay]: under the water. And so again, the, the
value of experience and there's two fold experiences,

[Jay]: one, it happened. to me not during training.
It's one experience. And then another experience

[Jay]: is it happened to me on purpose during
training. And it gives me a reference point.

[Jay]: And that's the thing that for me I value
so much is that it's not theoretical. And it

[Jay]: wasn't me sitting, showing off skills
on a line. It's me in the environment as close

[Jay]: to what it's going to be minus the surge.
than building experiential knowledge and reaction

[Jay]: to that situation. And I think when it
comes to scuba training, there, there is a

[Jay]: lot of sit on a line and show me a skill
and that skill doesn't correlate to the real

[Jay]: diving because it's simply happening
on the line rather than in the actual situation

[Jay]: you'd be in. And that's one of the things
I really appreciate about the training that

[Jay]: I've received is that training is happening.
in the context of really diving and the instructors

[Jay]: are then using the little mistakes that
you're making as a team or as a diver and showing

[Jay]: the logical conclusion of those things
for a stupid example of this, not stupid, but

[Jay]: a good example of this is, you know,
a teammate of mine was running a really loose

[Jay]: line. And if you've ever seen, you know,
a spool under the water line takes on a life

[Jay]: of its own underwater, right? It just,
it is. So if you run a really loose line as

[Jay]: the lead diver or as the captain who
has the reel, you've got two divers behind

[Jay]: you who are dealing with that loose line.
And if you get a little too close to it, right,

[Jay]: the line has a tendency to do its own
thing. And sure enough, I got a little too

[Jay]: close in one of my courses and it started
to kind of look like it was gonna go around

[Jay]: my fin and the instructor used that.
It went around my fin. I got stuck right in

[Jay]: that moment and off go my other two teammates
down the line, still lining and running their

[Jay]: line. And there I am. And he filmed my
reaction, their reaction, see what would happen.

[Jay]: And you know, the protocol there is try
to free yourself once. And if you can't do

[Jay]: it, stay put. And my initial reaction
was like, okay, I tried to free myself and

[Jay]: now I'm sitting here and I know. I've
got enough gas to sit here infinitely almost

[Jay]: for them to come back. But that panic
kicks in and I had the, I had the want to

[Daniel]: What?

[Jay]: cut the line. It

[Daniel]: Were

[Jay]: cut me

[Daniel]: you,

[Jay]: out of line. Yeah.

[Daniel]: were you cavern at that point or?

[Jay]: No, this was just a tech one or tech
recreational. Um, I should, I think that was

[Jay]: essentials that happened in,

[Daniel]: Ahem.

[Jay]: I don't remember exactly which course,
but the idea here is that we're running a line.

[Jay]: You know, to get back to the exit point
on thirds. like you would off an anchor line,

[Jay]: if current's really strong or something
like that.

[Daniel]: Yeah, I've lifted enough pumps. You
go down with enough rope that if it's not,

[Daniel]: if you don't have control of that
rope, it's just, and then you can't just go,

[Daniel]: oh, let me just grab it and coil up,
because then

[Jay]: Ha ha ha.

[Daniel]: it will get you. It'll take you. The
other thing was, I think, and I've listened

[Daniel]: to enough podcasts on any kind of
training that the harder you train, or maybe

[Daniel]: not the harder you train, but the
more variables you have in your training, then

[Daniel]: when something actually happens, it's
not as difficult or you've been there before

[Daniel]: or so the surge in your training,
you're never likely to come across that when

[Daniel]: you're not, at least not in that intensity
in a cave necessarily. So that was sort of

[Daniel]: an element that if you can do it with
that surge, Just remember to go left, not right.

[Daniel]: No, I'm just kidding. And then, you
know, you should be easier, should be, when

[Daniel]: you actually come across that type
of situation.

[Jay]: Yeah. I mean, again, it's, I don't think
the attempt was to make it artificially harder.

[Jay]: It just, that was the logistics of how
things worked out,

[Daniel]: Sure.

[Jay]: you know?

[Daniel]: Yeah.

[Jay]: Um, and, and you deal with, with it as
you want to deal with it. Um, and I'm still

[Jay]: learning San Diego in terms of where
to dive. So, you know, find us a 20 foot clear

[Jay]: water and calm water spot. I mean, didn't
exist. Tried, uh, you know,

[Daniel]: Yeah.

[Jay]: And, uh, I mean, we had to do all kinds
of interesting things to build the cave out

[Jay]: with lots of sandy bottom areas that.
That don't have places to tie off. Um, so,

[Jay]: so it was a challenge in that regard,
cause I just don't know the area well enough

[Jay]: to say here. I got to know it over the
course of two weeks. We dove in a lot of different

[Jay]: locations and checked them out for training.
Um, you know, dive sites, but yeah, I mean,

[Jay]: I, again, I think, I think the value
of experience, get seated. I mean, I kind of

[Jay]: think of it as like, maybe a good analogy
here is the flu shot, right? In the sense that

[Jay]: you're, you're giving, I mean, you know,
not to go into the science behind flu shots,

[Jay]: but essentially, you're giving a, or
does it make a stand because I know there's

[Jay]: a whole anti-vac.

[Daniel]: Yeah.

[Jay]: Yeah, that's not what I'm saying. I'm
just talking about the analogy.

[Daniel]: Right, right,

[Jay]: You're,

[Daniel]: right.

[Jay]: you're,

[Daniel]: You took a left instead of a right.
You were supposed to go,

[Jay]: yeah,

[Daniel]: no.

[Jay]: exactly. You're giving up the disease,
whatever it is, right?

[Daniel]: Right,

[Jay]: Let's just

[Daniel]: right,

[Jay]: use the flu, because

[Daniel]: live

[Jay]: everyone

[Daniel]: virus.

[Jay]: knows what that is, a live virus, in
a way to then train your body, your immune

[Jay]: system to be able to fight that. So that,
you know, that's the, the science behind that,

[Jay]: whether it be COVID or flu or whatever
things that people want to, wherever you stand

[Jay]: on vaccinations, the, the science behind
it is you give a little bit to train your body

[Jay]: and your immune system how to fight it.
And that's what prevents you from getting more

[Jay]: sick is the, is the logic there, the
scientific logic. So in training within a real

[Jay]: dive and not on a line demonstrating
skills that gives you some of that same live

[Jay]: virus, quote unquote, in a safe environment
within the context of your instructor. And

[Jay]: again, in this case, in 20 feet of water,
not actually in a cave, buried somewhere deep,

[Jay]: not deep in a cave, but deep. If you're
in Florida, most of the caves are deep or whatever,

[Jay]: we're in a very safe environment. It
gives you that immune response to the problems

[Jay]: or the failures that may arise. or the
things that you might face. Now it's not to

[Jay]: say that then we don't go into the cave
and actually do these things there. That's

[Jay]: what cave one and cave two is about,
but in the introduction to it in overhead protocols,

[Jay]: or for example, when we're doing a tech
one dive, I mean, Greg and I told this story

[Jay]: on the last podcast about, you know,
um, you know, the, the Deco bottle getting

[Jay]: stolen from Greg, cause Greg and I

[Daniel]: Yeah.

[Jay]: thought we were smarter than our instructor
and we weren't. And, um, But that's a real

[Jay]: situation. Those things can come off,
it's a lost ego.

[Daniel]: He'd make a great pic.

[Jay]: Oh, I think so. I think that's where
he learned it

[Daniel]: I

[Jay]: all.

[Daniel]: mean, assuming he's not already.

[Jay]: Yeah, I have to check my safe here since
he stayed with me

[Daniel]: right?

[Jay]: for two weeks.

[Daniel]: Thank you for

[Jay]: Kidding

[Daniel]: watching.

[Jay]: Ben. Check from all my watches. Yeah.
But, uh, you know, that, that's a situation

[Jay]: that then we dealt with it. It was like,
oh, you don't have a deco bob. At first it

[Jay]: was jarring. And then after we dealt
with it, it was funny because you're kind of

[Jay]: like, geez, yeah, he got us good on that
one. But now I know if I want to observe the

[Jay]: full diver before you call a deco stop.
And make sure they have the bottle because

[Jay]: we could have caught it a lot earlier.
But then two, I have experience in saying,

[Jay]: if this ever happened in real life, how
do we react to it? It's the same thing, you

[Jay]: know, in now over, or, you know, in the
lost line, how you react to it. I mean, hopefully

[Jay]: the surge isn't throwing you everywhere,
but eventually I figured it out. Eventually

[Jay]: I figured out how to talk. And if I had
another five minutes, I probably would have

[Jay]: found the line. Right. And you just cut,
cut the drill because I got the point, right.

[Jay]: So again, the value of real experiences
in a safe environment is a lot like giving

[Jay]: a little bit of the virus in a safe dose
so that your immune response, or in this case,

[Jay]: your emergency response to dealing with
those things, you know, our bodies know what

[Jay]: to do because they've seen it before,
same thing becomes true in your scuba training.

[Jay]: our bodies and our minds. That's something
that we don't really use when we're fighting

[Jay]: a disease is we can't, well, again, we're
going to get into the whole thing, but you

[Jay]: know, we, we don't

[Daniel]: I

[Jay]: fight

[Daniel]: mean, you

[Jay]: the

[Daniel]: can

[Jay]: disease with our mind, positive thinking,

[Daniel]: remain

[Jay]: but

[Daniel]: positive and it should

[Jay]: yeah.

[Daniel]: certainly help it. But then you'll
have the mechanical, if that's the right term,

[Daniel]: if something goes wrong. If you say,
all right, this is going wrong, here's the

[Daniel]: mechanical process in which to fix
it. But then there's a variable that could

[Daniel]: be added into that, like a silt out.
So you've got a problem. you've got an air

[Daniel]: problem, a gas problem, but now you're
in a complete silt out. So you know how to

[Daniel]: fix it if you could see it, but now
you can't see it. So again, the harder you

[Daniel]: train or, and again, I don't think
that's the right word, but the more you train,

[Daniel]: the more difficult the training, when
something happens, then you're just better

[Daniel]: prepared to deal with it.

[Jay]: Yeah. And I think one of the things to
that point is, is that there are At least I've

[Jay]: learned there are protocol divers that
will react or you can become, let me put it

[Jay]: this way, you can become a protocol diver,
which is a rote response to a problem, if that

[Jay]: makes sense. So

[Daniel]: Yeah, sure.

[Jay]: you have a protocol to solve the problem
and that's it. And one of the things again,

[Jay]: I appreciate in the training I've received
is the goal is not the protocol. The goal is,

[Jay]: is the thinking diver and the thinking
team. And so the reaction then becomes about

[Jay]: the brain and how we're processing this
together, then it, then it does the protocol.

[Jay]: And one of the things I appreciated in
some of the training I got was look like th

[Jay]: there isn't a wrong way to solve the
problem. If you get out, there are simply more

[Jay]: efficient ways that we can solve problems.
So if you decide to do a, a gas share on a

[Jay]: fixable right post, and exit the dive,
okay, you got out. You planned for it and your

[Jay]: gas plan, great. But more efficient would
be, why don't you just fix the right post?

[Jay]: Like I do screw in the first stage and
you could have continued your dive and instead

[Jay]: you spent all that money or

[Daniel]: Well,

[Jay]: whatever effort to get down there.

[Daniel]: that lends itself to the control of
the emotions and the panic. And if you have

[Daniel]: enough people, then I would imagine
that dynamic is able to, depending on each

[Daniel]: one's responsibility, is able to solve
that problem, right? But if you're diving with

[Daniel]: a single buddy, and maybe you've dived
with this person for years or just... a lot

[Daniel]: of dives, but you've never had a problem.
You've never come across a situation that required

[Daniel]: some nuance to your problem solving.
And then, you know, you don't know what's gonna

[Daniel]: happen until it happens. And then
that could be, it could be the equivalent of

[Daniel]: sharing gas and going to the surface.
The equivalent could be bolting to the surface

[Daniel]: because that's just where my brain
goes. I'm just gonna go because I know there's

[Daniel]: air. my buddy will be okay or whatever
the case may be. So the training, and it's

[Daniel]: hard to train in that situation if
you don't have the right, I guess, structure,

[Daniel]: the right infrastructure for that
sort of thing. But I think if you asked every

[Daniel]: scuba diver a yes or no question regarding
training, just make up a question. It'll probably

[Daniel]: get the same answer because no scuba
diver should ever be like, I'm good. I mean,

[Daniel]: I'm good. If I dive within this environment,
then I don't need any more training. Well,

[Daniel]: that's not entirely accurate. You
know, you should always be, I mean, every dive

[Daniel]: is a training dive, but if you're
diving at 30 feet and going south for 2,000

[Daniel]: kicks and coming back, it's like,
you know, what's gonna happen? Who are you

[Daniel]: diving with? The environment might
be the same, but you know, maybe you had, I

[Daniel]: don't know, maybe you had a couple
of drinks last night and it's gonna affect

[Daniel]: your... reaction on this dive and
then anyway a million different scenarios there

[Daniel]: but I think training is key no matter
what.

[Jay]: Yeah. And I think being open to, you
know, looking at it more as a continuation

[Jay]: rather than a

[Daniel]: Hmm.

[Jay]: checklist in the sense that like,

[Daniel]: It's a lifestyle, not a diet.

[Jay]: yeah, that's a good way to put it. Yeah.
Cause I mean, look, I mean, for me, I've, I've

[Jay]: trained technical diving. I've done technical
diving. I know how to react to a failure on

[Jay]: my twin set. But even I need to be put
in that situation because I can take a hundred

[Jay]: dives on my twin set and nothing goes
wrong. And then I get back into training, right?

[Jay]: And boom, you go, oh yeah, is it right
or left? What do I need to do? And although

[Jay]: I know what to do, I haven't done it
in a hundred dives because I haven't had that

[Jay]: reality. Like when there's a failure
in tech, you know, or even in the silver-eyed

[Jay]: protocols, there's a, you know, an instructor
brings down the air gun. And you don't see

[Jay]: it coming. And all of a sudden you hear
the bubbles exactly how it would be. Um, and,

[Jay]: and again, you can do as many valve drills
as you want and think through those things,

[Jay]: but then when the bubbles come, which
is something you don't want to go and simulate

[Jay]: yourself, like let's

[Daniel]: Right.

[Jay]: break the manifold just so I can make
sure I'm trained on this. So it's, so it's

[Jay]: a continuation. It's not like check.
I know how, what to do. If I hear bubbles on

[Jay]: my right side, it's continuing to train
those things. on an ongoing basis and to put

[Jay]: yourself in those situations. And yeah,
it might be as routine now for me to, which

[Jay]: is not, I'm not saying that, but it might
be as routine now for me to, to deal with a

[Jay]: manifold failure as it would be for me
to deploy a backup light, for example. Um,

[Jay]: but it's still something I should be
doing in part of the training. And some of

[Jay]: that stuff, you, you just, I can, I can
simulate a light failure all day long and deploy

[Jay]: a backup light and deploy a second one.
Um, and that's easy enough to do, but, but

[Jay]: simulating bubbles coming out, uh, of,
of which side and making a guess it's a little

[Jay]: harder for, for that. And so I look at
it as, you know, no matter where, where you

[Jay]: are in your diving or wherever I am in
my diving, wherever I think I am, it kind of

[Jay]: comes back to the. The immutable truth
of scuba diving is as soon as you feel like

[Jay]: you're on the high horse, get ready for
the fall. And that's. that's a lifestyle choice

[Jay]: to continue to put yourself in the situation
to feel the fall and not, not get, I think

[Jay]: Gareth Locke talks about, uh, I don't
know if he talks about it in the same way,

[Jay]: but the, the idea being risk homeostasis
where, yeah, you do the same 30 foot, 60 foot

[Jay]: dive or man, if you're tech diver, you
do the same, you know, 200 foot dip on the

[Jay]: same boat, uh, every month. And it gets
comfortable. to the point where you are normalizing

[Jay]: the risky things that you might be doing.
When you change the environment or you change

[Jay]: the conditions, or you change the visibility,
which are part of the conditions, so on and

[Jay]: so forth. Now you're dealing with something
that, that presents a different risk. And it's

[Jay]: not just the dip in Lake Travis and swim,
you know, say hi to Jim, the rock and Fran,

[Jay]: the rock and the other rock that you
know, you know, you want to be able to train

[Jay]: for those situations that again, we're
in the wild. And that's the thing with

[Daniel]: I feel like it seems odd that if you
do the same dive for a year, once a week, in

[Daniel]: your mind you think theoretically
people will think or do think nothing's gonna

[Daniel]: happen because nothing happened the

[Jay]: Exactly.

[Daniel]: last time, the last five times. But
in reality, it should absolutely be the other

[Daniel]: way around. You're just getting closer
and closer. Like if you never get your reg

[Daniel]: set. serviced it should be closer
and closer to it failing. So I don't know why

[Daniel]: we it's weird that we think that oh
it didn't happen last time it's not going to

[Daniel]: happen this time.

[Jay]: Yeah, like equipment or buddy checks
in, um, I think is

[Daniel]: Oh

[Jay]: what

[Daniel]: yeah,

[Jay]: a lot

[Daniel]: you're

[Jay]: of,

[Daniel]: fine. You look good. We're good. Let's
go.

[Jay]: yeah, that's the prime example in my
mind. There are so many things that can be

[Jay]: solved in an

[Daniel]: prevented.

[Jay]: equipment match and prevent it, yeah,

[Daniel]: Yeah.

[Jay]: before you ever hit the water. That the
fact that, that those get skipped over because

[Jay]: I'm an event is a case in point to what
you're saying is the, the more and more we

[Jay]: normalize. the fact that we didn't do
a buddy check last time and no one died. Therefore

[Jay]: we don't need to do a buddy check this
time because no one will die. Right. It's kind

[Jay]: of the, the logical logic behind it all
is exactly what you're saying. You're hurtling

[Jay]: closer and closer towards the sun. Like

[Daniel]: Yeah.

[Jay]: you're going to get burned. Like that's,
I was actually coaching one of my students

[Jay]: in, we ran an essentials of tech course,
um, Ben and I co-taught that and you know,

[Jay]: we were getting into the weeds. with
this particular student about, um, waiting.

[Jay]: And it's an easy place to get into the
weeds because, um, you know, you start to know

[Jay]: when you, when you go through some of
the training that we're doing, you actually

[Jay]: know that when you're a pound or two
light, it's crazy, but you, you know that and

[Jay]: you actually learn. Like the exact waiting
for your, you know, undergarments or your,

[Jay]: your wetsuit, whatever you're diving
in the exact way we measure, right? What is

[Jay]: your rig actually way underwater? We.
use a fish scale and measure it, right? And

[Jay]: so she was kind of going down the rabbit
hole of down to the pound. And I said, look,

[Jay]: like I get it, but that's a really good
like thing to think about, but it's also like

[Jay]: chasing the white dragon or whatever,
the whatever the phrase

[Daniel]: Hahaha

[Jay]: is, right? Is that like, look conditions,
you know, did you eat a big meal last night?

[Jay]: You know, like you have a little more
bioprene maybe that today or, you know, did

[Jay]: you... you know, is it colder? Are you
did you change undergarments? Are you diving

[Jay]: the same twin set? Or is it you know,

[Daniel]: or

[Jay]: you switched to aluminum's right?

[Daniel]: back to the bomb topic. You haven't

[Jay]: Yeah, you haven't

[Daniel]: dropped

[Jay]: released,

[Daniel]: any bombs

[Jay]: uh,

[Daniel]: yet, no. Ha ha

[Jay]: in a while.

[Daniel]: ha.

[Jay]: You haven't, you haven't, your B 52 hasn't
been out of the, out of the hanger yet. Um,

[Jay]: you know, whatever. So, so waiting is
going to be variable, you know, salt water,

[Jay]: yeah, and whatever,

[Daniel]: Yeah,

[Jay]: 35,

[Daniel]: sure.

[Jay]: whatever. Like, I mean, it changes, it
shifts. And so like, you want to be within

[Jay]: a range. We know our lungs are about
four pounds. We can, we can deal with on a

[Jay]: shift with our lungs. So we want to have
a range. Now, if you dive in the same place,

[Jay]: a hundred dives every year, yeah, you
should know you're waiting for that spot. But

[Jay]: if I'm on a boat, I'm going to take the
first dive and go like, ooh, I feel a couple

[Jay]: of pounds light. Let me throw a couple
more pounds on, right? I want to be within

[Jay]: that range. I said, but the things to
obsess over are the things that there are no

[Jay]: variables to. An equipment check or a
buddy check, there is no variable. You either

[Jay]: do it or you don't. And that's something
to obsess over and to be obsessive about, right?

[Jay]: And doing it the same way over and over
again, so that it becomes something that you

[Jay]: are disciplined in doing gas planning.
We can't change the amount of gas we have under

[Jay]: the water. I mean, I guess we can if
we've staged bottles and things, but, but if

[Jay]: we'd haven't done gas planning and we're
not clear about is this a half usable, all

[Jay]: usable thirds usable situation and what
rock bottom is Which in our, in my language,

[Jay]: rock bottom is enough gas to, to take
two divers to the surface or to the next available

[Jay]: gas source in a, in a no gas available
situation, that's something that, that there

[Jay]: is no variable to really, unless the
dive plan gets completely screwed at some point

[Jay]: for whatever reason, and then we're able
to do that recalculation or water as a team.

[Jay]: So those are things to obsess over is
the things that, that are. Um, I think that

[Jay]: are relatable back to that risk homeostasis,
which is to say, not normalizing things that

[Jay]: are super simple that we skip that turn
out to be super risky.

[Daniel]: Yeah. So what's next?

[Jay]: Yeah. So a lot of, a lot of topics in
this one. This is a good, a good, a good one.

[Jay]: Yeah. So for me, I'm, I'm super happy.
So I passed overhead protocols, which is really

[Jay]: kind of a pass fail. It's not a certification,
but it's a prereq class. So I'm cleared for

[Jay]: the next step. And so after DEMA this
year, which is in, I think I already mentioned

[Jay]: is in New Orleans, we're going to go
down to. Florida and excited about hubbing

[Jay]: out of out of Cape country there. And
we are going to do cave one and cave two, which

[Jay]: is if,

[Daniel]: Both of them.

[Jay]: yeah, if you look at UTD standards, uh,
cave one is really the only, I think it is

[Jay]: the only course that has a time limit
on it in terms of like, if you're

[Daniel]: interesting.

[Jay]: certified cave one and expires, that's
the only one that expires.

[Daniel]: Oh, oh, not the course itself,

[Jay]: No, no,

[Daniel]: like a test,

[Jay]: it's an expiring

[Daniel]: okay.

[Jay]: certification. And the reason that cave
one is even in the standards from what I understand

[Jay]: is because it's taking into account if
like a hurricane comes through and we can't

[Jay]: finish full cave or something like that,
at least you can get into the environment and

[Jay]: practice. And so it's a rare certification.
So cave two is full cave, full navigation within

[Jay]: the cave, no decompression and obviously
not a rebreather yet in the cave. But that's

[Jay]: cave two is full cave. And so the way
that it's done is cave one, cave two are combined,

[Jay]: or I forget how many days, five or six
days in the environment. And so that will be

[Jay]: November.

[Daniel]: What is the course with full cave
and decompression?

[Jay]: Um, I have to look it up off the top
of my head. I couldn't tell you. I think that,

[Jay]: um, cave two introduces, um, I'd have
to look it up. I think it introduces either.

[Jay]: I don't think it introduces decompression,
but it introduces, I think, stages. I have

[Jay]: to look it up. I don't remember. I don't
know off the top of

[Daniel]: No,

[Jay]: my

[Daniel]: I'm

[Jay]: head,

[Daniel]: just curious.

[Jay]: but yeah,

[Daniel]: Just

[Jay]: KF2.

[Daniel]: curious.

[Jay]: So, that's one part of my, and so by
the end of the year, again, if fall things

[Jay]: go according to plan in terms of my performance
and, you know, I'm not a whole lot of risk,

[Jay]: I think, in that part of the country
for that time of the year of not being able

[Jay]: to finish because of the environment.
Then at the end of this year, I will have,

[Jay]: I will have achieved my first scuba goal,
which was to become a certified cave diver.

[Jay]: And I'm pretty excited

[Daniel]: a

[Jay]: about

[Daniel]: year

[Jay]: that.

[Daniel]: and at least six months in advance

[Jay]: at least six months in advance

[Daniel]: based

[Jay]: of them.

[Daniel]: on your original plan, yeah.

[Jay]: Yeah. And then

[Daniel]: Awesome,

[Jay]: I have

[Daniel]: man.

[Jay]: one other

[Daniel]: Oh, okay.

[Jay]: So the other is there is a, and we'll
see how this all plays out. But the other thing

[Jay]: that I've been moving towards, so my
first goal in diving was after I was in Atzenote

[Jay]: was to get CAVE certified and to be able
to be in that environment. And as time has

[Jay]: progressed in that, my ultimate goal
has been to explore. I wanna get to a place

[Jay]: where I can. explore and I've done some
of that. Um, but certainly not to the extent

[Jay]: that I would like to. And the idea with
exploration is that there are lots of tools

[Jay]: available to you. And you want to be
able to utilize the tool that is best suited

[Jay]: for that job. So whether that be, you
know, single tank, you know, back mount doubles,

[Jay]: doubles and you know, stages, decompression
diving, cave, whatever it would be. That my

[Jay]: skillset and my ability to use these
tools wouldn't hamper the explorations, whatever

[Jay]: the exploration needs, I can utilize
that tool. That's been kind of the, the putting

[Jay]: tools in my backpack view of, of my training
and, and all that. So one of those tools that

[Jay]: has become extremely relevant to me now
that I'm in San Diego and have done some diving

[Jay]: here has been, Hey, like there's some
really interesting things that are deep here

[Jay]: and gas and, and gas mixing now become
limitations to being able to see what those

[Jay]: things are to explore those things down
there or what I'm not exploring, like it's

[Jay]: never been seen before, but exploring
for myself. And so there are a lot of applications

[Jay]: here that a rebreather makes sense, um,
as the tool to use to go and make those types

[Jay]: of dives.

[Daniel]: Is, sorry to interrupt the flow. Does
Jack dive re-read? Okay,

[Jay]: He does. I believe

[Daniel]: I think

[Jay]: he

[Daniel]: I thought

[Jay]: is

[Daniel]: I remember

[Jay]: on

[Daniel]: that.

[Jay]: a, he told me, I don't wanna misspeak
for him, but I think he's

[Daniel]: know

[Jay]: on

[Daniel]: this

[Jay]: a kiss

[Daniel]: one.

[Jay]: sidewinder, if I believe. Or he's on
a kiss rebreather and he's configured for backbounce,

[Jay]: I don't remember. But yeah, some of these
other folks, which is that I've dealt with

[Jay]: are also on rebreather, whether rebos
or other. And so one, I have people that I

[Jay]: can die with and two, there are, clear
applications for that tool here. That would

[Jay]: be super interesting to me. So

[Daniel]: Yeah,

[Jay]: anyway,

[Daniel]: for sure.

[Jay]: in the long story short, there is a maybe
or a likelihood, put it that way, that training

[Jay]: could also take place early December
after Cave. We'll see if that's gonna be the

[Jay]: case and there's a lot of logistics to
work out. on that, but I'm kind of settling

[Jay]: in on, and I'm sure we're going to get
a ton of comments on this. So feel free to

[Jay]: leave me your opinion.

[Daniel]: I'm

[Jay]: I'm

[Daniel]: out.

[Jay]: taking it all into account right now,
but so far in my research and things, I've

[Jay]: really been drawn to the SF2, the Scubaforce
SF2 Re-Breather back-mounted. There's also

[Jay]: a configuration to convert that into
a side mount unit if needed. And I just really

[Jay]: love the simplicity of that unit and
what it kind of looks like. And this is why

[Jay]: I'm saying there's going to be a thousand
comments of everyone

[Daniel]: I

[Jay]: has

[Daniel]: was thinking.

[Jay]: their opinion.

[Daniel]: and I might edit this comment out.

[Jay]: Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

[Daniel]: But maybe you could wear the SF2 shirt
every episode.

[Jay]: Yes, yes, that's I'll call them to get
that.

[Daniel]: Ha ha ha.

[Jay]: Um, yes, I'll wear that one or my, uh,
my, uh, my light monkey shirt when I eventually

[Jay]: get it

[Daniel]: Oh yeah,

[Jay]: someday.

[Daniel]: well that, yeah.

[Jay]: But yeah, so that, that's an, a

[Daniel]: Awesome.

[Jay]: possibility as well, which is. Again,
all these things were not in my plans for 2023.

[Jay]: I literally thought, and I still, you
know, my ultimate plan is to get established

[Jay]: here

[Daniel]: Well,

[Jay]: and that's how.

[Daniel]: shoot, man, then what's happening
in 2024?

[Jay]: dive, man. One of my applications for
rebreather diving is I mentioned it on the

[Jay]: Desert Island Dives, not the archeology
edition, but the other one, which is the big

[Jay]: O and the swim through

[Daniel]: Oh.

[Jay]: in the hangar bay, the riscany.

[Daniel]: Yeah.

[Jay]: So that's a perfect application for a
rebreather because for many reasons,

[Daniel]: Well,

[Jay]: but that would be

[Daniel]: if

[Jay]: a good

[Daniel]: you

[Jay]: one.

[Daniel]: don't take video, you will have to
go back.

[Jay]: Yeah, there you go. Exactly. Yeah. Oh,
and then the highlight too, I forgot to mention

[Jay]: the highlight from these last two weeks,
um, which was super fun during our essentials

[Jay]: course that I was instructing on the
last day, we were doing some more dives together,

[Jay]: um, and we decided to go to La Jolla
Cove. And, um, right now it's, well, it's always

[Jay]: the case that there are sea lions and
seals there.

[Daniel]: Oh, yeah, I saw the video.

[Jay]: Yeah, but right now

[Daniel]: That's.

[Jay]: there's a lot of, uh, they're pumping
as well, or the pups are out. And so we got

[Jay]: to take, uh, you know, some, a lot of
fun diving with the sea lions and.

[Daniel]: Did you notice that, I mean, are moms
protective of their pups?

[Jay]: It's hard to read, like I was asking
actually, one of the buddies I made is a lifeguard.

[Jay]: I think he's a lieutenant or some high
up in a lifeguard about that and how to read

[Jay]: their reactions. Cause they're.

[Daniel]: Because that one video came right
at you, snapped and then left.

[Jay]: Yeah. So, so, so some people read that
when you see that video as they see the bubbles

[Jay]: and they're blowing bubbles along with
you, other people, and the way I read that

[Jay]: video was a get the heck out of my space.

[Daniel]: It looked like a false charge. I mean,
it looked like

[Jay]: Yeah, like

[Daniel]: a

[Jay]: get

[Daniel]: bear

[Jay]: out of here.

[Daniel]: false charge. Yeah.

[Jay]: Yeah, like that's how I read it. And
I

[Daniel]: That's

[Jay]: fully

[Daniel]: probably

[Jay]: didn't

[Daniel]: the

[Jay]: expect,

[Daniel]: safer way to read it.

[Jay]: yeah, yeah. So I mean, you know, it's
a wild animal. So, you know, you don't know.

[Jay]: And we weren't

[Daniel]: Oh, you mean

[Jay]: like,

[Daniel]: I shouldn't go up to it and take a
selfie right next to something

[Jay]: yeah.

[Daniel]: that's

[Jay]: And you

[Daniel]: a

[Jay]: actually

[Daniel]: thousand

[Jay]: see

[Daniel]: pounds?

[Jay]: this. I mean, it's wild, but

[Daniel]: Jeez.

[Jay]: no, we were in a respectful, like we
didn't go chasing them. We let them kind of,

[Jay]: when we saw them, let them... have their
space and try to capture. I have some other

[Jay]: video I have to share, which is beautiful
of them in their own space playing and things.

[Jay]: But then there's lots of stories of the
divers have here of the sea lions coming and

[Jay]: pulling on their fins and being playful
and this thing. So, you know, you don't know.

[Jay]: And it kind of comes back to the whole
thing of like, better safe than sorry. And

[Jay]: so with all marine life and all aquatic
life, take pictures. Um, don't put your hands

[Jay]: on, uh, don't, you know, go chasing,
chasing something and it's in its home environment.

[Jay]: Um, that makes it feel threatened. I
tell my girls all the time, you know, if you,

[Jay]: if you leave something alone and give
it space and it's going to do the same to you

[Jay]: and, you know, all that. And, um, but
yeah, that video that we got a bunch of them,

[Jay]: but that one in particular that you're
mentioning, I read that as like, don't

[Daniel]: Yep.

[Jay]: you're not welcome here.

[Daniel]: Yeah.

[Jay]: but others saw it and said, oh, they're
blowing bubbles because they see your bubbles.

[Jay]: And these are experienced, so I don't
know, but I'll tell you what I didn't do was

[Jay]: go and chase that sea lion

[Daniel]: Good luck.

[Jay]: afterwards.

[Daniel]: Good luck in keeping up with him.

[Jay]: Oh, I know they must just be behind us
being like, look at this idiot. You

[Daniel]: Yeah,

[Jay]: know, they're so graceful

[Daniel]: internet.

[Jay]: in the water. So super highlight. And
if you're out there and you're wanting to dive

[Jay]: with sea lions here in San Diego, I'm
happy to jump in the water with you. If you

[Jay]: make that journey or you live here, um,
it's, it's an awesome experience. It really

[Jay]: was. Cause I mean, they're everywhere
and beautiful kelp forest, uh, around that

[Jay]: side of the Cove and really nice diving.
The visibility on that particular day was pretty

[Jay]: good. We got in another day. Um, you
know, a few days later and visibility had just

[Jay]: gone to,

[Daniel]: on

[Jay]: you know,

[Daniel]: that.

[Jay]: bad. Um, so it depends on the day, but
yeah.

[Daniel]: Cool, man. I'm super excited. And
I am going to ask that you share more pictures

[Daniel]: than you do.

[Jay]: Yeah, that's a good, that's a good,

[Daniel]: How about that?

[Jay]: that's a good.

[Daniel]: I was going to ask you that while
we're not recording, but on the recording,

[Daniel]: I'm going to say, I need more pictures.

[Jay]: I know, I know. I'm trying, I really
am. And I

[Daniel]: Ha

[Jay]: actually

[Daniel]: ha

[Jay]: did

[Daniel]: ha!

[Jay]: post for myself. I did share a lot

[Daniel]: Yeah.

[Jay]: of posts on Instagram. So for myself,
that was a lot, but it definitely wasn't

[Daniel]: Yeah, well,

[Jay]: enough.

[Daniel]: it's true.

[Jay]: Ha ha ha.

[Daniel]: Twice a year, I think is what you
do. It's about right.

[Jay]: Yeah, I need to get better at it. So,
hey, if you're a social media expert out there

[Jay]: and you know, a good regiment to, to
get me to train me in that social media environment,

[Jay]: um, of how to be more disciplined, I
would appreciate a shout out to me and a kick

[Jay]: in my rear to get that stuff done.

[Daniel]: Me too, actually. So we can zoom with
that person

[Jay]: Yeah.

[Daniel]: conference call.

[Jay]: Exactly.

[Daniel]: Cool, man. I'm really excited to see
what happens. I like how 2024 is not happening

[Daniel]: the way you planned it in a good way.
I hope the house is settling in. You're settling

[Daniel]: into the house, all of the above.
So yeah, glad we got this down for posterity.

[Jay]: That's right. Yeah. And I think maybe
it would be fun to do. I think this was your

[Jay]: idea to do one when cave one and cave
two

[Daniel]: Oh yeah, this is series.

[Jay]: are

[Daniel]: We'll,

[Jay]: over,

[Daniel]: we'll

[Jay]: do

[Daniel]: turn

[Jay]: a

[Daniel]: this

[Jay]: little

[Daniel]: into

[Jay]: couple mini series here. It'd be fun.

[Daniel]: jade's yellow brick road or maybe
the red one. No one knows where the red one

[Daniel]: goes. Do you see that?

[Jay]: Yeah, yeah, that's

[Daniel]: There's

[Jay]: true.

[Daniel]: a,

[Jay]: I don't

[Daniel]: just

[Jay]: know.

[Daniel]: saying,

[Jay]: Yeah. No, I

[Daniel]: just

[Jay]: mean,

[Daniel]: saying.

[Jay]: like I said, I'm super blessed and, and
surprised that this was even an opportunity

[Jay]: this year. And I said, I'm really thankful
to my good friend, Kevin Wood as well. Because

[Jay]: he's, I took on the planning for OHP
and all the things that happened here. This

[Jay]: is my home base. But he's taken on all
the planning for Cave 1 and Cave 2 in Florida.

[Jay]: And so again, I kind of can ride his
coattails on that. And so I, again, if I had

[Jay]: to take on all the planning logistics
for all that, I probably wouldn't be doing

[Jay]: it just because it's, you know, one

[Daniel]: Yeah,

[Jay]: of those things

[Daniel]: sure.

[Jay]: this year. Um, but the fact that it just
dovetails off of DMA, I'm going to be a DMA

[Jay]: anyways. Um, you know, it's not too far
of a drive down to Florida from there. Like

[Jay]: all of it kind of works out. And so I'm
thankful to a lot of people who are handling

[Jay]: some of the logistics for me to be able
to. to join in and then like I said, if things

[Jay]: go well, which I anticipate they will,
I don't have any reason to think that they

[Jay]: won't, then yeah, then by the end of
this year, I'll be full on CAVE certified,

[Jay]: which is a goal for sure, but the bigger
goal is to dive in the CAVE. So then I'll be

[Jay]: allowed

[Daniel]: Yeah.

[Jay]: to then dive in the CAVEs and that's
gonna be make for a fun 2024. And then if the

[Jay]: Reader thing comes through as well, then
there's something to work towards in terms

[Jay]: of. Being able to bring that unit into
an overhead environment, which is more training,

[Jay]: so it's not, it's not like you get rebreather
and then, Hey, go down some caves now that's

[Jay]: rebreather. One is same limits as rec
one a hundred feet, you know, open water, no

[Jay]: overhead. And so there's training to
do on that unit and hours to put on it, to

[Jay]: be able to bring in the case so you

[Daniel]: I

[Jay]: could

[Daniel]: think

[Jay]: see it.

[Daniel]: you did. You did 100 feet, Rec1. You're
not supposed to do 100 feet.

[Jay]: Yeah. What dive five, I think it was
like six. Hey, what's down at a hundred feet

[Jay]: or a hundred. I think

[Daniel]: Let's

[Jay]: it was

[Daniel]: go.

[Jay]: 130 was the, and

[Daniel]: I

[Jay]: I

[Daniel]: don't know what

[Jay]: actually

[Daniel]: you're

[Jay]: told

[Daniel]: talking

[Jay]: that

[Daniel]: about.

[Jay]: story the other

[Daniel]: No.

[Jay]: day. I won't tell it now, but I told
the story where I was like hanging my, my hand

[Jay]: down to hit that 130.

[Daniel]: Oh, oh, I thought it was the, I thought
it was the compass fail.

[Jay]: Oh no, gosh, that was a whole nother
situation, but that wasn't deep. That was,

[Jay]: that was just,

[Daniel]: Oh, it wasn't?

[Jay]: no, we were, we were mid water at like
60 feet

[Daniel]: 60p,

[Jay]: and

[Daniel]: okay.

[Jay]: couldn't see anything in vertigo and
all the other things kicked in. So, but that's

[Daniel]: fun

[Jay]: a whole

[Daniel]: stuff.

[Jay]: different story. No, the deep one was,
was well, yeah, we'll have to tell another

[Jay]: story. So the pick on you, but yeah,
I remember the first time it was like, Hey,

[Jay]: how deep can we go? You're like, yeah,
I've been deep in a long time. What's why not?

[Jay]: And

[Daniel]: Yeah,

[Jay]: in my

[Daniel]: let's

[Jay]: mind,

[Daniel]: go.

[Jay]: I'm going, oh, well, I'm, I'm with a
dive master. Like,

[Daniel]: Yeah.

[Jay]: you know, I'm, I'm fully safe. And we
did. And then there was like, I think there

[Jay]: was another buddy separation. And I remember
hanging my hand

[Daniel]: Not from

[Jay]: down.

[Daniel]: me though.

[Jay]: No, no,

[Daniel]: Not from

[Jay]: we

[Daniel]: me,

[Jay]: lost

[Daniel]: not from

[Jay]: some

[Daniel]: me that

[Jay]: other

[Daniel]: time.

[Jay]: guy

[Daniel]: Yeah. No,

[Jay]: who

[Daniel]: because.

[Jay]: ended up, we lose, we lost him a lot,
not because we lost him because he would just

[Jay]: peel off and do his own thing. And then.

[Daniel]: Oh yeah.

[Jay]: I remember his name now, but I'm not
going to mention on the podcast, but there

[Jay]: was a guy.

[Daniel]: No, that's fine. You tell me afterwards.

[Jay]: Yeah, there was a

[Daniel]: I'm

[Jay]: guy.

[Daniel]: vaguely. Yeah.

[Jay]: Anyway, long story short, yeah, I remember
like getting down to 130 feet on

[Daniel]: Yeah.

[Jay]: air and hanging my watch down to get
it as deep as possible just to like show it

[Jay]: on my, you know, my computer and just,
you know, no narc out, but just kind of, okay,

[Jay]: that was fun for five minutes and now.

[Daniel]: No,

[Jay]: We have enough gas.

[Daniel]: I mean, I remember a line. There was
a line there. Wasn't the line go all the way

[Daniel]: down or? Yeah.

[Jay]: Yeah, there was a buoy that a line went,
well a line went down to another line that

[Jay]: went down to another line

[Daniel]: Yeah,

[Jay]: that took us

[Daniel]: right.

[Jay]: all the way down. Yeah.

[Daniel]: Yeah.

[Jay]: But

[Daniel]: So.

[Jay]: anyway.

[Daniel]: All right, man. Well, great catching
up. I love you on the podcast. I can't wait

[Daniel]: for the next episode.

[Jay]: Yes. Yeah. And looking ahead, so we have
the final episode with Greg coming up, which

[Jay]: I think is going to be great. And then
we've got three with Kevin Wood. So he'll come

[Jay]: onto the show, which is exciting. And
learn a little bit about some of the similarities,

[Jay]: maybe between B-52 training

[Daniel]: It's boring day job, yep.

[Jay]: and Scuba. And we have a ton of stories
because we've dove a ton together and been

[Jay]: in a lot of these trainings together.
So it'll be fun, hopefully fun episodes. And

[Jay]: then Ben Boss will actually be back on
the show as well at some point. We're gonna

[Jay]: talk about designing trainings for adults,
which is gonna be interesting amongst other

[Daniel]: And

[Jay]: things.

[Daniel]: then after that,

[Jay]: We don't know.

[Daniel]: who knows?

[Jay]: Well, we know we have a couple more of
this series of cave and then we don't know

[Jay]: what's gonna happen because we haven't

[Daniel]: We

[Jay]: invited

[Daniel]: know.

[Jay]: any other guest co-hosts.

[Daniel]: I think we know what we want to have.

[Jay]: Yes, but we're not ready to talk about
that

[Daniel]: No,

[Jay]: yet.

[Daniel]: we are not.

[Jay]: Yeah, so it's been a weird season two.
I can't wait to do a season two recap and

[Daniel]: Mm.

[Jay]: just talk about how this season has been
a very challenging

[Daniel]: and

[Jay]: and

[Daniel]: interesting,

[Jay]: very rewarding

[Daniel]: yeah.

[Jay]: season at the same time.

[Daniel]: Sure.

[Jay]: But yeah,

[Daniel]: Lot of practice, it's good practice.

[Jay]: it

[Daniel]: Every

[Jay]: is.

[Daniel]: episode is a training episode. Ha
ha ha.

[Jay]: That is not the situation you want to
be in as a podcast, but I think

[Daniel]: No, but

[Jay]: that

[Daniel]: it's

[Jay]: actually

[Daniel]: true.

[Jay]: is true, has

[Daniel]: Yeah,

[Jay]: been true

[Daniel]: of course it is, yeah.

[Jay]: this season,

[Daniel]: Learn

[Jay]: which has

[Daniel]: something

[Jay]: been great.

[Daniel]: new.

[Jay]: What's cool about this season, I think
so far has been there's been so many different

[Jay]: voices.

[Jay]: You hear the passion from all of these
folks in different areas. And I know for myself,

[Jay]: I've learned a lot and, um, not only
about diving and about those interests, but

[Jay]: about divers and, and those, how those
paths, uh, how they gone down their path and

[Jay]: things. And so that's been a really cool
thing. And it was actually, it's crazy. I didn't

[Jay]: tell you the story, but, uh, we were
at a dive shop getting gas fills and, um, the

[Jay]: guy behind the counter and there was
just chatting with them. So, what's your story?

[Jay]: Like, what are you working on? He's like,
oh, you know, my ultimate goal is to be an

[Jay]: underwater archeologist. I kid you not.
Those are the words that came out of his mouth.

[Daniel]: Interesting.

[Jay]: And I probably look like such a fool
because I was like, no, bleep. You're kidding,

[Jay]: I'm gonna stop. You're kidding me. Like,
I like yelling at this poor dude. He's, you

[Jay]: know, just

[Daniel]: It's

[Jay]: graduated,

[Daniel]: like, what?

[Jay]: got his master's. He's like, why is this
guy yelling? And I was so excited because I'm

[Jay]: like, oh, we just finished these two
episodes with you gotta meet this guy, Greg,

[Jay]: blah, blah. I'll introduce you guys.
And we started talking about the stories and

[Jay]: all that. And so, um, I'm bummed I haven't
heard from, so you're listening to this episode,

[Jay]: dude from ocean enterprises. I forgot
your name already. Why haven't you reached

[Jay]: out? Number one and number two, I know
where you work. So I'm going to come and say

[Jay]: hi to you. Um, but I want to introduce
him and Greg and hopefully he's listened to

[Jay]: some of the episodes because

[Daniel]: I love

[Jay]: it was crazy.

[Daniel]: Greg's definition of underwater archaeology.

[Jay]: Yeah.

[Daniel]: Do you remember from the episode?

[Jay]: Yeah, it's

[Daniel]: He's

[Jay]: like.

[Daniel]: like, well, basically everything you
do in archaeology, underwater. And

[Jay]: Yeah.

[Daniel]: it caught you off guard for a second.
It was a funny moment. I think it's clipped.

[Daniel]: I think I clipped

[Jay]: Hahaha

[Daniel]: it out there. Yeah. So hey, I got
to run. I've got a

[Jay]: Yeah,

[Daniel]: 3

[Jay]: it's

[Daniel]: a.m.

[Jay]: a long episode.

[Daniel]: flight. So can you take us out?

[Jay]: Yeah, let's wrap this baby up. So again,
out there in the skewiverse, thanks for joining

[Jay]: us. Hopefully this was interesting to
you, but a good idea from producer Daniel here.

[Jay]: And if you would like to connect with
us, please do. You can go to thedivetable.com

[Jay]: and send us a message. We love hearing
from you and love hearing your thoughts, especially

[Jay]: I'm imagining I'm gonna get a thousand
Re-Reader emails now about

[Daniel]: And

[Jay]: why

[Daniel]: virus

[Jay]: they're,

[Daniel]: comments

[Jay]: and virus

[Daniel]: too. Yeah

[Jay]: comments, yeah. I did not say I was an
anti-vaxxer or for

[Daniel]: Nope.

[Jay]: vaccines. I just explained the science,
but

[Daniel]: Yeah,

[Jay]: I'm sure

[Daniel]: fuck.

[Jay]: I'm going to get emails. Uh, but reach
out to us. Um, the, the dive table.com also,

[Jay]: if you are interested in learning more
about the training that I've been on or the

[Jay]: training that I provide as an instructor,
uh, you can go to Gardner underwater.com. It's

[Jay]: Gardner underwater.com and reach out
to me there or wherever. I love to talk about

[Jay]: that stuff. And as always, we are a production
of Fish Dive Surf, Inc. And so if you want

[Jay]: to learn more about waterway conservation
and the connection between fishing, diving,

[Jay]: and surfing, go to fishdivesurfinc.com
and you can reach out to Daniel.

[Daniel]: That's justfishdivesurf.com.

[Jay]: Oh, sorry, fishdivesurf.com.

[Daniel]: That's all.

[Jay]: The Inc is implied, it's silent.

[Daniel]: The ink is permanent.

[Jay]: The Inc is pronounced. with nothing,
just

[Daniel]: Yeah.

[Jay]: fishdivesurf.com. Yes, fishdivesurf.com.
So please reach out, we'd love to hear from

[Jay]: you. We'd love to hear what your journey's
looking like. What surprised you? I have a

[Jay]: ton of surprises this year.

[Daniel]: Definitely.

[Jay]: And I'm sure we'll hear

[Daniel]: Here's

[Jay]: from

[Daniel]: some

[Jay]: lots

[Daniel]: stories.

[Jay]: of you. And maybe

[Daniel]: Yeah.

[Jay]: we should, you know, to read some of
these on air. We'll get some and read them

[Jay]: on air, that'd be fun.

[Daniel]: I do.

[Jay]: Yeah, so thanks for joining us for this
episode, and we hope you come back for the

[Jay]: next episode of The Dive Table.

[Daniel]: No, my mouse is not working.

From Lost Open Water Student to Overhead Protocols, Cave 1, 2 and Beyond| S2E13

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