Is Scuba Diving Still Special? | S3E01

Jay (00:01)
Welcome to the dive table. I'm Jay Gardner and with me now I can say as always on this podcast is Miss Sarah Miller. Sarah, how are you doing today?

Sarah (00:13)
What's up? I'm doing great. My hair is still wet from guiding this morning. I'm fresh from the dive boat, so I'm ready to talk here. Let's go.

Jay (00:23)
You're ready to jump in, dive in, back roll in whatever portion of it. I just have to say right off the get go, how excited about this season I am and about you joining the show and the amazing, I know we're good to it later in this episode, but I just want to say off the bat how excited I am to have you and how amazing I think this partnership is going to be. So welcome and that needed to be said.

Sarah (00:51)
Thank you. Thank you. I'm excited too. And it's cool to kind of have the following year, right? We kicked off last year together as when I was a guest co-host. So now we get to see what's changed.

Jay (01:06)
It's true.

That was a huge, huge exciting thing. And, you know, we've said it a thousand times, but it was worth repeating that Sarah, when producer Daniel and I talked about who we wanted to be as our permanent co-host after season two, Sarah was at the top of the list. We were like nervous, you know, school kids, like we got to ask her, what if she says no? And so there was a whole conversation and she said yes. So that's how we got to this moment, which is pretty exciting.

Sarah (02:04)
Yeah, it's cool. For those of you who don't know, I primarily, for internet things, I'm primarily on YouTube. I'm also on all the other social media channels with my brand, Asul Unlimited. And I'm just excited. I don't know much about podcasting. I'm excited to learn this format and be able to connect to people in a different way, because this is very intimate.

you know, having a conversation and sharing it with people. So it's a cool thing that I'm excited to embark on with you guys.

Jay (02:42)
Awesome. And it's going to be a great season. We'll talk about all the things we're looking forward to later or maybe another episode who knows, but for this episode, we wanted to kick off the year, kick off the season with the, I think annual question that we've been asking ourselves at the dive table, which is, is scuba diving special? I mean, why are we still doing this activity sport, whatever you want to call it, however you define it, but why are we still

diving?

Why are we still spending all of this time, effort, energy, resources, money, talking about doing scuba diving? So we kicked off last season together with this topic and you were a guest co-host. So I think you're right. It'll be exciting to see what's changed in the last year. Is it still special and why? So you have any highlights from the last year you want to give the listeners out there?

Sarah (03:17)
Money.

Jay (03:41)
what's changed or...

Sarah (03:43)
Oh my gosh, so much has changed. I mean, this year has been wild for me. I've really been working on my brand and community building. You know, I live in my van and travel and it's allowed me to meet people in person, dive with them. I just ran my second Baja dive expedition and I had eight people join me who had found me on the internet and knew me from my YouTube videos.

Like I had never met them, which was like, I'm getting goosebumps thinking about it. Cause that to me is so like, it's so wild and life changing. You know, like when I started YouTube, there wasn't this idea of like, oh, I'm gonna be an influencer because A, I hate that word. I don't know why I just have like a thing about like influencing. But B, I don't know. I just didn't think of it as a possibility. And

Jay (04:32)
Ha ha.

Sarah (04:42)
it's happening. And now, you know, I'm taking another group to Komodo in June, and I have another trip to Socorro in 2025. And it's just like, Whoa, you know, talk about a scuba diving special, my goodness, the community that is building around, you know, my other brand is so special, like I wouldn't trade it for anything.

Jay (05:04)
Yeah, when you started that, it was kind of coming off of the heels of closing down the dive shop in Komodo and not, I'm paraphrasing, you can put words in your mouth, but you can say for yourself, not really knowing what the next chapter held. And this was kind of like a passion project from what I understand for you. So to see it in the last year bloom, I'm sure has been amazing from your eyes.

Sarah (05:28)
It's crazy. I mean, it really was when it when we started making a lot more videos in 2020, it was sort of like a Hail Mary of like, are we going to save this business in Komodo, you know, and to turn it into what it is now is just like, it's so weird. I love it.

Jay (05:48)
Yeah, yeah, we were together at Dima and we got to do, we went live, I guess is the best way to phrase it. And it was cool to interact with some of your community there and the questions and then they've connected with me and said, hey, you know, can't wait for the season and this, that, and other thing. And so to see the community, not only is it engaged, but they're really cool people as well. And you're getting to dive with them and meet them. That's awesome. You can't ask for much more than that. Yeah.

Sarah (06:14)
Yeah. Yeah, watch out. They're going to be coming for you. They're awesome. They're great.

Jay (06:20)
Good. I'm glad. I've already got that email like, hey, maybe we could do this. Sarah could do this. We could all do this together. It was like, great. Let's do it. Like, no worries. Yeah. For me in the last year, I mean, I'll be honest, season two was rough for me. It was, uh, and the reason it was rough, it was a lot of work because, you know, it takes a couple of episodes to get comfortable. Even if you're really good friends, just in this medium, it's,

Sarah (06:29)
Yeah.

That's a lot of work.

Jay (06:49)
different in podcasting. So every three episodes, there was a turnover of a new co-host. And although these were all really good friends of mine, people I love talking to, there was a challenge every single time that I had to meet and it was really tiring. But it's funny, also in the last year, some of the listeners I think out there know, for me, I've always

your self and your work. And it's a long story, but it goes back to a shaman in a field in London and la la. We'll tell it someday. But the guy asked me, it's a funny one. It's a really funny story. Actually, you know what? This is the episode to tell it, right? If you're going to tell anything, why not tell it? Let's go for it. So not a long time ago, a few years back in my other life, that's not Scuba, I did a lot of travel and speaking to friends.

Sarah (07:30)
I cannot wait for that story.

Let's go, let's go.

Jay (07:48)
events and things. This particular event I spoke at was out in the middle of the UK on a big farm that used to be a big dairy farm out there living in yurts for four or five days. I had spoken a few times there and done some mentoring and all that to entrepreneurs and startup folks that were there. I needed a ride back to London. The event was over. There was this guy who is this, I don't know, shaman type style person.

who I'd gone to his talk and his talk was all about how, you know, following your passion and your dreams, which I thought was a bunch of BS to tell startup folks. I do, I mean, I think that you can have a passion and a dream and it doesn't mean there's a business. There's a difference between those two things. And it's dangerous to just say, follow your dreams, follow your passions to someone who doesn't know the ins and outs of, they have to have a business attached to make money to survive. It's all good if money is not an issue.

Sarah (08:32)
Right. Yeah.

Jay (08:46)
So anyway, of course I needed to ride back to London and I communicated that and the person that rose their hand to take me was the shaman. I go, oh great, I'm stuck in a car, close quarters with this guy for four and a half hours who thinks, you know, follow your passions and your dreams. I mean, how many platitudes are we gonna go through in four hours, you know, like, oh gosh. So I get in the car.

Sarah (09:08)
Hahaha!

Jay (09:11)
And you know, the conversation starts. And of course, like I didn't pull any punches, you know, he said, Oh, you came to my talk, what'd you think? I said, well, I think it's dangerous what you're saying. And here's why. And I was honest about it. He said, do you have a really good point? But let me ask you a different question. Um, where are you at your best? And that question set me back a minute. It really did. Where am I at my best? So, well, what, how do you evaluate that? What, what are the criteria that you put to saying I'm at my best? Well,

Where is the fruit? Where are the good things in your life? Where have they come from? And then try to trace those back. And I said, well, I don't really know. I don't have an answer for that. I mean, that's some introspective work. And it set me off on this little journey of, well, where did the good things come from my life? Where does this come from that from? And as I went through that over the course of the next few months, of course, this stinking shaman guy, I called him back up and I said, I think I have an answer.

Sarah (09:44)
Hmm.

Jay (10:09)
And I said, you know, when I trace everything that's good that happened in my life or that's happening in my life, it's from me being open up on a stage or, you know, that's the microphone in front of my face. That's the metaphor. But it's teaching, it's sharing openly, it's being public about who I am. That's when good things happen. So wow, that's very insightful. And then the next thing he said to me has been now a lifelong journey. And we've become very good friends and laugh about.

telling him he was full of BS a long time ago. But the next thing he said was, that's great. Now try to organize your life around that regardless of what you think the return will be. Financially, fame, wealth, all that. Organize your life. Say yes to all the things that allow you to be at your best, to put a microphone in front of your face, and say no to anything that's not that and see what happens. And that has been a lifelong journey for me.

Sarah (10:50)
Mm.

Jay (11:08)
of now trying to do that, put myself in a position, say yes to things that allow me to teach, that allow me to learn, that allow me to be open, regardless of what I think the outcome of it will be, and say no to the things that don't do that. Say no to the jobs that maybe pay a lot better, but it's not me teaching. It's not me at my best. And I'll tell you, that has been an amazing thing. And the reason I bring all that up, I guess, is one, we're on.

Sarah (11:27)
Mm-hmm.

Jay (11:36)
season one or season three, episode one, you can tell these stories. But the other reason is, is I believe that when you're at your best and you're starting to put yourself into that, that that's where the fruit or that's where the payoff or that's where good things start to come from. And so I see it with you, with Azul and the you being at your best. You keep on telling me to embrace the goofy, embrace the fun and

And that's all it is. And that's what you've been doing, embracing yourself, right? With Azul, which is amazing. Uh, and for me, yeah, go ahead.

Sarah (12:10)
Yeah, no, but that's powerful. That's super powerful. I love that tip, you know? And it doesn't have to be, I think for me, you know, so many of us, I think because a lot of people struggle financially or whatever, like we're always looking at how we can make things be a business or whatever. But like, you can also like just get your life to have those things without making it your income.

You know, I think you were looking at it from an entrepreneurial, like you got to make money and everything. But like, you know, you can also bring that energy into your hobbies and the way that you connect with your friends and stuff. And like, maybe that's not how you make your living, but it impacts everything else, right? It makes everything else better. I don't know where I'm going with that, but it just, it's, I think it's a topical to like why scuba diving is special.

Jay (13:08)
No, absolutely. I mean, I think it's something that when you judge wealth or resources with only a dollar sign or a pound signed or whatever currency you're listening to this in sign, you miss a lot of the other pieces that are there. And it's true when you pour yourself into something, the fruit may not be the, you're a bajillionaire. It may be riches and

way other different ways. And that's what I've experienced, right? I mean, scuba is for me, you know, a lifestyle at this point, you know, it's a way of being, it's a thought process. And that's what's changed in the last year for me is I set the intention, I want to make scuba what I get to wake up and do every day. And that's not true yet, but it will be. And what's great about that is in this last year, I took the big step.

of now becoming part owner, co-owner of UTD Unified Team Diving, a training agency. Yes, thank you. Yes. And it was a big surprise. It was one of those out of the blue, I got the phone call from the CEO and who I knew well and love what UTD stands for. And he said, hey, I want to hit you with a weird question. What do you think about coming on as a co-owner? And I was like, what? Like that wasn't even in my thought process.

Sarah (14:14)
Congratulations.

Jay (14:36)
of something to do. And it goes back to that principle, say yes to the things that put you in position to be you and say no to anything else. And so I thought about it for probably 30 seconds. Does this put me in a position? Of course it does to teach. I have a training agency, right? And to make that better. And do I believe in UTD? Do I believe in what they stand for and who they are and all these things? Which was a yes already. And so I said, yes.

And it took a few months to work out the details and do all the paperwork and la la, but now I'm officially a co-owner of, of the training agency. And I, and I see it as an amazing opportunity to transform people's lives as it did for me. Um, so that's big, huge change other than I moved, which everyone knows about it moved back to California, but, um,

Big huge change, but anyway, we're all philosophical and off into the shamans and in the fields of the UK now. This is a good way to start the season. I feel like it's gonna be.

Sarah (15:41)
Hey, I'm feeling grounded.

Jay (15:44)
There we go. We're all grounded. We can give our ohms, our deep breaths here and move on. Okay. Well, good. So you have been moving like crazy with Azul, all these trips. I am now the co-owner of UTD and there's three of us, so it's co-co-owner. I don't know how those titles work. And we have the dive table with both of us forevermore.

which is awesome. That sounds funny, huh? Forevermore, at least until we either run out of things to talk about or we can't do it anymore. But let's get into maybe the fun of this episode, which is, is diving still special to you? You know, is it special? If it is, what makes it special? Is it something that you want to keep doing? Is it something that's now a job? You know, both of us now work in the industry, we're both instructors.

What is it about diving that makes it so special to you, Sarah? So floor is

yours.

Sarah (16:50)
Oh man, well I already mentioned for me, the big theme this last year has been community building. And it's been so much more special this year than ever before because, you know, when I first moved into my van, I was so broke. I was not like, I was trying to recover from losing the business and like, just.

It was bad, it was really bad. And I spent a lot of time sleeping in cities, urban camping, because I just couldn't afford to do the influencer van life thing of going off to all the national parks and going across country. I couldn't do it, it just wasn't an option. But I don't know, I stayed positive through it.

because I guess I just knew that I had to. Like, otherwise I would slip into a depression and, you know, just not be okay. And I have a lot of different communities in my life. And, you know, I've mentioned this to my following. They know about this. I'm sober. I'm in recovery. And that community carried me through all of that tough time. You know?

And what I've found with getting my feet on the ground and really getting to know the people that are following me and have learned from me online is that this community can kind of be that for other people where like maybe they don't have communities in other ways. And that to me is so powerful. Like I have been able to meet people that...

are just looking for that. They're looking for a connection and to feel empowered and just have something magical in their lives, because when we have these moments of, even though we're virtual, right? But I feel connected to you as we're discussing things, especially because we've already brought shamanism into this. Like, it's just, it's something really profound.

Jay (19:10)
Hahaha.

Sarah (19:14)
And I love being able to be sort of the catalyst for bringing people together. And then my favorite thing in the whole world is when those people meet and then they go off and they do their thing, you know? And it just becomes this spider web of people that have connected because of a Swool Unlimited. I'm sure you've experienced that with the dive table too, and we'll experience that together as this.

podcast grows. But that to me is just like, because I know how important community is for me and seeing this, like seeing my diver community grow, you know, with Patreon and all these other groups that I run and organize. It's mind-blowing. It's so special to me. And hearing their stories about like...

overcoming fears. I think I mentioned that in the episode last year, because that's always a big thing for me. Why I love scuba so much is seeing people overcome and like feel so empowered, you know, like, Oh, wow, I can do this. And this is amazing, you know, and being that person that sees that click happen, right? Like the, the light goes on in their eyes and they're just like enthralled. I mean today, Oh my God, I had two people with

like single digit dives, right? Like brand new divers. We went to Cabo San Lucas, the Marine Park, and we saw, we were just at like the normal dive site that everybody goes to, Pelican Rock. And we were there and all of a sudden three mobile arrays came around and started just cruising, you know? They weren't heading anywhere. They were just hanging out. I was like...

Jay (20:55)
Oh wow.

Hahaha.

Sarah (21:04)
What? You know, like, amazing, so magical. And lastly, I'll shut up soon. The last thing that I've really been getting deeper into this year, and I hope to get even more into as time goes on, is, you know, the ocean has always been important for me, advocating for it, conservation, all of those things.

Jay (21:06)
Couldn't script it any better. Yeah.

I'll please continue.

Sarah (21:34)
but I've been able to like directly impact and be involved in organizations that I truly believe in. Like I don't do a Soul Unlimited as a full-time gig. I'm alongside, you know, I'm with you in that it doesn't quite cover that, you know, financially. So I run social media accounts and one of them is Reef Check Foundation. They're a nonprofit organization and I just, I love.

being that like helping to get their voice and their mission and accomplishments out into the public, you know, seeing that grow and seeing what they can do, like the actual impact that they have on policies and, you know, advocating for different places and restoration.

that's hugely important to me. And that's part of the reason why my trip in 2025 to Socorro, that's a citizen science trip with fins attached. And so we're gonna be learning about shark research and all of that nerdy stuff, which I'm like so excited about. I can't even like, can't even tell you. But those are the main things for me. Like that's what gets me so excited about.

the work that I do and to keep going and to keep pushing to grow this thing in the way that feels authentic to me. Like, I just, I feel very uncomfortable a lot of the times I've mentioned like the whole influencer thing. It just doesn't, I feel weird about it. I don't like it when my stuff goes viral. It's like very uncomfortable to me. And so

which is really weird because that's like exactly what somebody in my position would want, but I don't know. I'm kind of a strange person. But yeah, I don't know. That's something, that's what I see in diving. That's my love letter to it.

Jay (23:43)
Yeah, it's amazing. I mean, so you mentioned community and I think that's such an interesting aspect of diving and maybe, you know, there's something like two and a half million divers worldwide that they consider active. And, you know, what I've learned being in this industry the last few years has been just how small it is, you know, and how interconnected it is and how relational it is. I mean, it really is.

Sarah (24:06)
Tiny. Mm-hmm.

Jay (24:12)
you know, they call it retail politics, but it really is door to door caucus politics of, of people know people and the memories are long. And sometimes those memories aren't great. You have heard a lot of different stories and things and, but the community aspect, you know, that was something that was surprising to me getting into diving was how much diving is a team activity or a, or shared activity.

And I remember a long time ago, you know, it's kind of a sad story, but I think I was in Belgium and it happened to be, you know, these two events crossed over on my birthday. So I just was going to spend my birthday in Belgium. And there's this city in Belgium that I love called Ghent. It's kind of a college town, you know, old Trappist monks breweries and things like that, but it has a very Gothic.

feel to it. The old castle is still there. I said, Oh, well, I'll spend my birthday in Ghent. I love that place. I'll go there. So I did. I went and had an Airbnb there and along the river and all this stuff. And I remember walking around Ghent and just loving it, you know, and let's be honest, the Belgians, you know, get some things right. Number one, if you're getting chocolate, right? I mean, that's, that's pretty amazing, but not only chocolate, then they've got the Belgian waffle. So I mean, come on, waffles are right.

Sarah (25:33)
Hehehehehehe

Jay (25:35)
Then Belgian frites, which are basically the origin of French fries, which are amazing. And then Belgian beer. I mean, beer, waffles, fries, and chocolate. I mean, something's happening right in Belgium. I'll just say it that way. And if you're spending your birthday around those things in an amazing city, it should be this lovely, incredible thing. And it was and it wasn't because it was by myself. And I remember years later, a colleague of mine

Sarah (25:40)
Uh.

Hahaha

Jay (26:05)
We happened to be again in Belgium and I said, we've got to go to Ghent for a day or two and just hang out. And we did, and he was a good friend of mine. And it was like a whole different experience walking around showing him, here's this and here's that. And here's this thing I went and did. No, we have to have a beer on this bridge because of blah, blah. And there's something about the shared quality of a space, of a place that creates that community. And I think

diving in the same way because so few of us get the opportunity to really go under water and see what's down there, you know, and we're to experience it in that way. And regardless of your, you know, configuration and, you know, your training and this stuff, throw all that out the window that we all get to go underneath the water and experience something together. And you know,

There was this great project of like before and after photos, before the dive and after the dive photos. And they would take a picture of people before they went diving, then take a picture right when they were back on the boat or right on the surface. And there's just this smile and this release. And then it's shared with somebody else. And that's that community piece. And to me, that was very surprising. I didn't expect that. I didn't think about scuba diving in that way until I started to

Sarah (27:08)
Mm.

Jay (27:31)
experience it. And I also think it's a, for me, it can be double edged sword, this community piece, because there, you know, I built up an amazing community in Texas and with trust and people that I could get in the water with, with really complex dives and felt good about it. And here it's been different in California in the sense that it takes time to build those relationships. It takes time to get in the water together and feel each other out and know, you know, be interested in the same things.

Sarah (27:39)
Hmm.

Jay (28:01)
And so I've been lacking that a little bit here in San Diego, trying to rebuild that being brand new to this, this community. Yeah.

Sarah (28:03)
Hmm.

I have an idea then. When I come back through San Diego, we should do like a meetup. Yeah.

Jay (28:16)
Yes, absolutely. That would be a lot of fun. Yeah, we do a little diving meetup. So I think team was on mine, I call it team, but community is really what that is. And it was a very surprising benefit. I mean, like you and I have met over diving, you know? And yet like when we were together the first time, I think in Long Beach, first time we met in person, it was like I'd known you for...

Sarah (28:22)
Yeah, it'd be so cool.

Mm-hmm.

Jay (28:45)
30 years it felt like. It was just like, oh, hey, you know, and then that's amazing. The connection that you can build with people is awesome. So I think that's definitely on my list as well is the community and the team aspect of it. I think the other thing that's on my list about what makes it special still, is still the idea of, like you said, advocating for the ocean is it's my wild. Like diving underwater is my wild. And it...

as stupid as this sounds, it can even be in a pool and I'm still feeling like I'm in my wild. Like I mean, I'm not in the element I should be. But you know, it's an interesting thing because a lot of people spend lobster season lately and everyone says, well, why aren't you out getting lobster? You know, don't you want to cook lobster? No, I'm not super interested in that. Like why? Like, well, because I want to look at it and I see these lobsters. I don't want to take anything.

Sarah (29:21)
Thanks for watching!

Jay (29:44)
Like I don't, I just, it's the wild. I want to, I want to preserve it as it is. And I don't want to even like touch anything. I just want to see it and be experiencing and be a part of it and not disturb it. You know, I want to, I want to be in that way. And, um, and so that wild holds that special place for me and it releases stress. It releases, you know, all sorts of, um, things that I've tried to work out in my brain.

seem to become clear underwater, you know, that I have nothing to do with diving, you know, trying to figure out how to, you know, best help my, you know, eight, almost nine year old, you know, with this X, Y, and Z, the growth vector for her and her life, you know, keeping me up at night and then underwater, it's like, Oh, and I come back with this clarity of like, and it's not like I was trying to think about that just happened. And so when you're in that wild space, you're embraced by something that

Sarah (30:35)
Mm-hmm.

Jay (30:41)
that you feel that you are in the scene, being a part of, actively participating in, not just observing the movie or observing the picture or observing somebody else doing it. There's a clarity of mind, there's an engagement of, I think, your soul in that. And for me, that is only possible through this activity of diving. I mean, obviously you could, on a breath hold, do a lot.

you know, snorkeling, so I'm not dismissing freediving or any of that, that that's not, but for me, I'm just, I need, I need a regulator in a tank, right. Or, or whatever to, to experience that hours of time. So I.

Sarah (31:19)
I'm going to go.

So, yeah.

Jay (31:26)
No, go ahead, go ahead.

Sarah (31:27)
Well, I was just curious, speaking of like wild, and I feel like this is, you know, we're in the mood of love in February. Like what's a top, because we all have a lot, I'm sure, but like what's the first thing that comes to mind when you think of like those awe inspiring wild moments? Like what was a dive that gets triggered when you're talking about that?

Jay (31:36)
Hahaha

There's a couple and there's one that immediately came to mind that's more, I feel stupid about it, but I, but I also, I'm just like, wow, it was, you know, it was the first few times I've been diving out here in San Diego. And in San Diego, there's, you know, this shelf basically that houses a bunch of different marine life. And it's not a highly decorated coral shelf or anything like that. It's kind of rock with some, you know,

sea plants growing on it and this sort of thing. And, you know, it doesn't team with life. Like you don't think like, wow, this is, you know, there's fish all around me and there's, you know, kind of like what you'd see in a normal reef system. It's kind of hidden away in the rocks and in the little tunnels that are digging to against things. And I remember, I don't know, it was my 10th dive or something like that out here, just getting used to how to get in the water and where to go and things like that.

And I came across these, they call them decorator crabs. And I didn't know what they were called at the time. But they're these little crabs that allow stuff to grow on them for their camouflage. And I was, and it was like looking where all I saw before in the last 10 dives was just rock and some plant life. All of a sudden, there's a crab. Oh, there's another one. Oh, there's another, those guys are good at hiding. And then I started to obsess over it and I spent the entire dive just like.

Sarah (32:58)
Hehehe

Jay (33:22)
hovering over a couple of crowds with my camera, trying to get those few little videos and things of just how my eye had missed all of that before and now my eye saw it. And then how funny they were to, they would hold so still, like they were convinced that their decorations had me fooled. And I was like, no, I see you dude. Sorry, I do see you. But they would hold still to the very last second, even sometimes I'd be like right.

next to them and then they'd be like, all right, I have to move my decorations not working or whatever. And I just kind of became obsessed with them. And so then I went down this whole path of learning about decorator crabs and the size and the type, how do they let stuff grow on them and how does that happen? And how does that, you know, little piece of seaweed growing on a crab live, you know, like how does that work in the ecosystem, little micro ecosystem there? And that's just inspiring and it's interesting and it's.

something that again came with, oh, I have capacity in my brain to see this now, whereas before I was just worried about the compass because I didn't know exactly where I was in that moment. So I mean, things like that, everything from that to, you know, there's the obvious awe-inspiring, you know, cenote or cave or, you know, these sorts of things. But to me, that little interaction with the crab, in total open water, not a technical dive, not a tough dive, I mean, you know.

70 feet of water, 60 feet of water in decent visibility was just like, this is special, this place is special. And then I think about it when I'm not in the water of like, those guys are still cruising around today. I'm just not there to see it. You know, there's a whole life that's happening, a whole universe happening under the ocean, under the water that's happening right now. I just don't happen to be in the water to see it right in the second.

And that blows my mind. It makes me wanna go back. It makes me wanna see it again. It makes me wanna be there longer and

just to sit and say hi to my friends. Yeah, just to sit and observe and enjoy and participate in what's happening around you that you're just not aware of until you're there. So I'll shut up now because that was a long answer to your little question, but it was a silly, silly little decorator crab that got me lately.

Sarah (35:27)
Say hi to your friends.

Yeah.

No, I love that. That's so fun. Is that La Jolla Shores? The shelf? Yeah.

Jay (35:52)
Yeah, La Jolla Shores, yeah, on the shelf, yeah. Valacitos Point is a good drop out or drop point there. Yeah, it's a cool, it's, and you know, what's cool about that dive site is that it's endless. I mean, it really is endless in terms of both depth and in terms of length. And so it's pushed me into now getting my rebreather because I want to be able to go deeper and see what goes down those trenches and what kind of life is that.

Sarah (35:58)
Cool.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Jay (36:22)
you know, different places. That's pushed me to try and figure out how to get a DPV. Still looking at you, dive extras. I hope and hoping to pull out my Cuda at some point, but, you know, because I want to be able to extend the range at which I could go. And so these, the wild has actually informed my path now as a diver, because that's available right here in my backyard, 20 minutes from my house. I can be experiencing that and want to be and will be.

when it's you know, the king tides aren't around anymore.

Sarah (36:54)
Yeah. Yeah, right. Oh my gosh. You, yeah, San Diego is like, right now, this is kind of a time sensitive thing. I don't know that we, that I should talk about it, but like the floods.

Jay (37:06)
Oh, it's crazy. I mean, it's been crazy. Yeah, well, the floods are one thing. That's the rain, but the kink tide that has been consistent, which happens, they call it a kink tide, but it's essentially a phenomenon where the gravitational pull of the moon is so strong and a storm and all these sorts of things align. And the waves have been insane. I mean, just insane. And some of the kelp forests

because of how strong these currents and waves have been ripped out and have to be regrown and things. And it's a natural occurrence. It's not something that was a freak tidal wave or something like that. And it happens during the wintertime in San Diego, or can happen, I should say, during the wintertime. But it has shut down a lot of diving for the last month. I mean...

Sarah (37:41)
I believe it.

Jay (38:01)
The Cove for example, there's this video of the Cove. So the whole Cove is this little protected Cove beautiful dive site If you want to interact with sea lions and seals That's the place in the world to go do it. I mean, that's it's amazing But the waves there's a cliff on the very time. It's a high cliff That people stand on and you know, look down into the ocean the waves were as high as the cliff I mean you're talking 18 to 25 foot waves

Sarah (38:06)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Stop.

Jay (38:30)
crazy. So it was no diving for anybody. But here's the interesting part about all that is that because of how strong all of that activity has been, and it's ripped out things like some of the kelp forest and things like that, which I've heard also up in Northern California and the same, it also has unearthed a bunch of things that haven't been seen in so long, X amount of years.

Sarah (38:31)
Oh my god.

Mm.

Jay (39:01)
friends posted up out of the cove of this wagon wheel that he found. And it's like, I've been diving in this place a hundred times last year, and there's no way I would have missed this. So this was unearthed by the king tides or the king waves. And there's this wagon wheel. It's like, what the heck is that doing there? And so there's a whole question of archaeology around that. So super interesting stuff.

Sarah (39:29)
Yeah. Oh, man. I really love that area. I was just thinking about your story about the decorator crab made me think about one of the first dives that I did in La Jolla Shores. And it was pretty early on in van life and, like, in my solo diving career. And so I wasn't necessarily, like, on edge, but maybe I was a little bit, you know, because it's a long surface swim.

right? And I was going out, I was going out by myself for a dusk dive. So the sun was starting to set, you know, a night dusk night dive. And I remember, I was heading down that shelf, and a sea lion scared the life out of me, like completely buzzed me from behind.

Jay (39:59)
It's a long surface swim.

Sarah (40:26)
I screamed in my regulator, I think I have a video of it, and then just continued to, you know, swirl around like they do, and then finally left. But I will never forget that. I was so surprised and scared in that moment, but then it was like, it's fine. Like, they're supposed to be here. Um, just crazy, crazy. I love that dive site. I had, um, I was thinking, when I asked you that, I was thinking about

Jay (40:45)
Exactly, yeah. There's nothing wrong with that.

Sarah (40:55)
one that stands out for me. And I mean, like you said, there's so many, but I think one of my favorites was also in California. So this is like really promoting California diving here.

Yeah, sometimes it's great. Yeah. It was actually on the Central Coast and like the port of San Luis.

Jay (41:10)
California Dive, there you go.

Send it to the tourism board for sponsorship. There we go.

Sarah (41:24)
area, so near Avila, which is normally not great, right? Visibility is usually not good, but this had been, I don't know, a few years ago. And it was a season when there were just no waves for a few weeks. Like all the surfers were all bummed because there was just no activity. But of course, scuba divers, we were stoked and had great visibility. I was supposed to go out to teach a class, but I had

extra time I got there earlier or whatever. And I decided to go for, I think this was actually my first solo dive. And I think max depth was like 35 feet, just because I wasn't confident in doing that kind of stuff. And I just didn't want to get in over my head, right? But I just, I had to see it because the water was so clear. I couldn't believe how clear it was.

and got in the water and then had like four or five harbor seals just like playing with me. And I was there by myself and they were just zipping all around and dodging in and going. I mean it was just a show and I was laughing so much. I think those moments, you know, they're so simple and especially for people that dive in places, you know, dive in California, like you see a million harbor seals, you see a million sea lions.

Jay (42:25)
Hmm.

Sarah (42:47)
but it just never gets old to me. Like those moments of just being there and witnessing, like you were saying, it's very cool. One of my lights died, so I'm gonna move this over here.

Jay (42:50)
Yeah.

Yeah. No worries. Nice. Yeah. And I think the other thing that was on my list, so beyond it being wild and having those experiences and the community piece of it, I think the other piece, and this is probably just me, but I just like geeking out a little bit on the technology.

And what I mean by technology is not like computers and things, although that's part of it, but just gear and gear configurations and, and reasons why, and things, because it is something that like, we cannot do without that gear, right? We just haven't evolved backwards, I guess, enough to be able to breathe underwater and so because of that, we've either got, you know, whatever we got in our lungs.

Sarah (43:34)
Re-Breather's.

Jay (43:55)
or we got to take something with us. And so for me, I like tinkering with the gear. I like simplifying it. I like understanding the gear, learning about it. And I think that diving in general, gear is maybe one of the metaphors for how there's just a con, you're never done learning. Because it's wild, because it's unpredictable, because all of those things,

You know, I always joke that Scoob is very good at as soon as you feel like you, you haven't figured out. Um, I know that the, the hits come in, you know what I mean? As soon as I feel good about something, it's like, I know the hits come in and, and whether that be a new piece of gear or it be a new environment or it be the same environment with a new challenge or be new teammates, all those sorts of things, you're never done learning. And I really enjoy that,

that.

all of the learning, the tinkering with your technique, the tinkering with your gear, the wow, I didn't think about it in that way. I might disagree. I might not think that that's a good idea, but I didn't think about it that way. Or the discussions that you have. I mean, I was just recently in cave country in Florida. We dove the mill pond for gosh, four or five days. Then we went on down and did…

Sarah (45:13)
Mm-hmm.

Jay (45:21)
know, high springs for another week and just amazing diving and meeting people and community and all that stuff. But just the conversations you'd get into that were so nuanced about a certain thing, it's cave divers, especially, I feel like, you know, have, have a strong opinion about certain things. And some of them are just stupid in my opinion. And some of them you go make you think like, Hmm. And some of them you go like, well, I guess.

Sarah (45:42)
everything.

Jay (45:50)
It's dependent upon these other things that you have to believe in for that to be true. And so there isn't a right answer. There's the right answer for you and what you feel like puts you in the position to be as safe as possible and those sorts of things. But the fact that you could talk about it endlessly for weeks on end with strangers is something that's special and cool.

And hopefully you walk away from those conversations, still friends or still acquaintances. Sometimes people get a little too heated with things and believe it's their way or the highway, which I don't think is the right way to do it. And look, I'll be honest, UTD, DIR diving, gee, we get that reputation because we have a certain way of approaching things. And one of the founders of it, George Irvine, back in the day, called everyone that didn't think his way was working, strokes.

And so it became a our way or the highway, you know, kind of philosophy. But there was a reason when you look at the history that was the case. And that was because they were trying to keep people completely safe in a completely unexplored environment and work that they were doing for their purposes, and it spilled out into a system and a way and a philosophy of diving. I find today, you know, for me, at least I'll go diving with anybody. And I don't look at people as strokes or.

this, that or other thing, just different, differently trained. And if people ask me questions, I'll answer them and I'll ask other people questions and it's open. But again, that's the thing I think that's cool is that there's an, it's so young diving in general, that there's an evolution of philosophy and approach. And we know so little today, although we think we have it all figured out of how to breathe underwater.

and something will change and something will change. And that's exciting to me, to be a part of something that's so ready for evolution, revolution and continually reinventing itself.

Sarah (47:56)
Okay, so I'm gonna ask the question, is stroke specific to UTD? Because I've never heard that before. No.

Jay (48:05)
You've never heard that? No, it was actually specific to GUE and became, so stroke was, the definition was at the time and has evolved, it's kind of like the telephone game. The definition at the time was, the saying was don't dive with strokes. And the idea was that a stroke is someone who is unsafe to him or herself or to others on the team. So they have a mindset that they're right or,

Sarah (48:09)
Okay, that's.

Okay.

Jay (48:34)
a configuration that is unsafe to you or to themselves. So don't go diving with those people, right? It was the initial, now, if you know anything about the history of DR diving, George Irwin was not necessarily the easiest pill to swallow, and that's saying it very lightly, and I didn't know the guy personally. So from what I understand, not the guy you wanna hang out with and chill.

Netflix and Chill would not be on his phrase book there, but I do now. I realize it as soon as it's coming out of my mouth that was the wrong thing to say.

Sarah (49:06)
Do you know what that means?

I love it. I mean, it works. It works in that sense as well. You know, it's fine.

Jay (49:20)
I don't think that would, it would work in that sense as well. I think as well, it would be like, you know, skydiving chill. But now I'm digging myself a hole I can't get out of. But the point being, I think the initial intent of that phrase was to protect those divers and to give them an ability to identify something that was a mindset and philosophy that was dangerous or that could be potentially dangerous to the type of diving they were doing.

Sarah (49:46)
Mm.

Jay (49:49)
What is kind of evolved to mean to some folks is anyone that doesn't dive the same way you do as a GUE or DIR, U2D. Yeah. And that's not how I would use it. But again, the people that, and this will be fine. This is part of the reason I think you and I are going to be such a great team because I have my training and my belief system and my, you know, all those things that

Sarah (49:56)
Yeah, that's what I assumed. Okay.

Jay (50:19)
that I believe in, but I don't come on it with the same baggage that I think a lot of that side of things has. And for me, I can understand both sides of that equation. On one side, I mean, who the heck? I dive the way I want to dive. So why are you judging me for that? And I like it here, and that's good enough for me, should be good enough for you. And I get that.

I get that philosophy, right? And I get that belief. On the other side of that equation is someone who has invested a ton of energy, time, training, resources, money, so on and so forth, into understanding and wanting to understand, driven to understand why a bolt snap is tied off the way it's tied off, right? Well, how does that have to do with safety?

You know, what does no metal to metal connections have to do with safety? Oh, you dig into the history, you understand, oh, actually some of the wreck divers on the East Coast back in the day had metal to metal connections on bottles and a guy got hung up on wires and couldn't cut himself out. So that's why we tie on a bolt snap the way we do it. And so every little thing that we do in a DIR configuration has a why behind it. And my personality is always, well, why? Tell me why, tell me why that's the case.

Sarah (51:25)
Mm-hmm.

Jay (51:45)
And there's an answer for everything, not just that's the way I've always done it, or that's the way it looks cool, or that's the way whatever. And so then I've, on the other side of that fence is all this investment in time in this, this deep yearning to understand why something is the way it is compared against, I like it the way I like it, cause I like it and that should be good enough. I could see the tension and I see where there's, you know, opportunity for, for both sides to be dismissive of one another. And I always kind of.

take the approach of saying, look, like I dive the way that I dive for me and for my team and for others. And I believe that that's the best way. And if there's something else, either I can choose not to go diving with that person if I think it's catastrophically unsafe to me or to them, or, you know, adapt and have fun diving. And that's what I do.

Sarah (52:37)
Yeah.

Jay (52:40)
Hey, look, if you come to me for a stupid story about this, sorry, I'm talking on and on about DIR, but here's a funny story about it. First dive back in San Diego, or first time in San Diego with brand new people I've never been diving with before. Night dive, La Jolla Shores, Nightmare Dive. I did a whole podcast last year, just train wreck for me. And one instance of that is we're diving along, a bunch of photographers. I mean, their photography rigs are just like insane. You know, these...

massive rigs. And this guy who now I know well, and it's a joke now, but I didn't know him at all. At the time first time I were dealt with him starts giving a signal on the ground. Right. And it's not Hey, look at this signal. Nice and calm. It's I'm out of gas signal is what I see. I see I'm out of gas. I don't know the guy. I look at all the other divers, three or four other divers sitting around this person. No one else reacting. And I think to myself, this guy's gonna die.

Sarah (53:27)
Mm.

Jay (53:40)
So I took two hard kicks, had my hand on my long hose. I'm about to rip that thing out of my mouth and shove it in this guy's mouth because he's saying, I need gas and no one's reacting. And I am the new guy, but I'm not gonna let him die. And as soon as like the rig starts to come out, you know, you start to just release it from your teeth and like you're right. I'm getting to his eyes to see like, is he, what's going on? And he's like totally fine. Looks at me like, whoa, what are you doing so close to me? And I'm like,

back kick, back kick, back kick, just kidding, just kidding, just kidding. Like, okay, what the hell was that? Well, he was just showing something that he saw that maybe people would want to take a picture of was that was his thing to me. I saw and read, Hey, I'm out of gas and I'm about to die. You know, that was my reaction. And I talked to him about it after the dive. I said, Hey, like, sorry, I got a little close there, you know, and if I freaked you out at all, I really apologize. You know, this is how I.

Sarah (54:20)
Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Jay (54:38)
what I was doing and how I saw it and apologies. And he was like, no, thank you so much for caring that much that you would like look like an idiot. And he's like, I'm really sorry I used that signal. Just a shorthand between us like, hey, look at this thing. And yeah, I know that means not a guess, but I just wasn't thinking that way. And so it's been a really cool thing. And we've been able to build a cool diving team ship around that or be

Sarah (54:59)
Mm-hmm.

Jay (55:07)
cool teammates around that one experience, but that's a good example of like, again, different, let it be. I look like an idiot, but I'd rather look like an idiot than let someone not have gas. And that was a good little snapshot of time of like both of us kind of being differently trained different ways of doing things and me reading one thing another way and him reading it a different way and it all working out and me not having to come up and yell at him and be like, what the heck or him being upset that I was in his face.

Sarah (55:24)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

Jay (55:37)
whatever, it could have gone a different way. So.

Sarah (55:40)
Yeah, no, I think that's it's gonna be cool. You know, as we dive into different topics and stuff, you know, my experience through the PADI system, and, you know, I've taken some TDI courses as well. But I have very limited experience with GUE, you know, just based on like what I've seen in the Pacific Northwest and California, and UTD and everything. So I'm actually really excited for us to finally get to dive together at some point, hopefully.

And just to, yeah, just to like learn from each other and share different perspectives there because I, you know, Patty's been really good to me, but I'm open. Like I bring in things from other places that I've learned and I bring them into my courses. You know, of course I'm following the Patty standards, but like you can add extras and really beef up those courses so that they're bringing more value to people.

Jay (56:11)
Soon soon.

Sarah (56:39)
And yeah, I think it's gonna be cool to have those discussions, different perspectives from our very like varied experience between the two of us, you know?

Jay (56:53)
Absolutely. I mean, yeah. And I think that that's the, one of the things I'm looking forward to the most about our partnership is learning from each other and learning from our audience and from the scuba verse out there and being able to connect. I mean, neither one of us get paid to do this. And yet, yet is a good phrase for this, but that's also not necessarily the driving force behind everything is money. There's a richness beyond that. And getting to...

Sarah (57:04)
Mm-hmm.

Jay (57:23)
to connect with people that are fans of the show. And people come up to me and I'm sure like you get this all the time is, hey, I feel like I know you and I don't know this. I've never met them before. Like, I feel like I know you. Yeah, I know you like blah, blah. It's like, oh yeah. It's like you're having conversation with me. I was, but I wasn't, you know what I mean? I was, but I wasn't. And that's what's special. That's that community piece of it as well.

Sarah (57:34)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Jay (57:53)
And what I look forward to us, our partnership is not only, I think that our experience is different and that's good and it doesn't need to be the same. And our training is different and that's good. It doesn't have to be the same, but also our minds are different. Our approaches are different. How we see something may be different and that's good. I think these are all good things. The goal of the show is not to tout.

Sarah (58:03)
Mm-hmm.

Jay (58:21)
one way as being a right way or a wrong way or those sorts of things, but to talk about diving and the love of it.

Sarah (58:26)
Well, yeah, and expand things, right? I remember last year talking about this topic. You had listed a lot of statistics, right? Like we talked about what the average diver looks like and all of that. And we talked about the still wildly lacking, just the fact that diving is wildly lacking diversity, right?

And so I think that's an important thing to highlight, just different experiences in the industry. And what I really look forward to coming up in the season is bringing in different people that maybe haven't been included in the community very easily, whether they've been.

priced out because of things or just the community itself is closed off or whatever. I feel like there's a shift happening, especially with social media. And it's so beautiful because people younger than us are making diving even more accessible. And it's just looking really good. New people are coming in and we're getting...

a lot of just exposure to different people, different cultures, different lifestyles. I think that's necessary.

Jay (01:00:07)
Yeah, yeah, I agree. I mean, I think that there is definitely a center line of what scuba has been. And I don't know, you probably, you know, I geek out about some of the, Daniel calls me a nerd, but I like some of the pop culture, movies and things. And one of them that's been out there is has been the series called Loki.

which is about this timeline. There's a sacred timeline, right? That, and everything else is a deviation or a branch from that. And this whole organization is built around protecting the sacred timeline and killing off branches that they don't evolve and kill off the main line, right? And what they find over the evolution, not to ruin the show for anybody that's gonna watch it, but that actually there's a lot of life and amazingness in these branches. And they've been killing that off.

Sarah (01:01:04)
Hmm

Jay (01:01:07)
And this is my summation of a pop culture, Marvel comic book movie or series. But I think that the same thing's true. It's a good analogy for diving in the sense that there is this kind of sacred storyline, white male wealthy person. And it's not to pick on those people to say that there's anything wrong with them doing diving, but it isn't.

Sarah (01:01:26)
Mm-hmm.

Jay (01:01:35)
only for them. And most of the people that fall into that line of a through line are not trying to preserve it only for them. I think there are some that do, and I think that that's sad, and I think that that's sad for multiple reasons. But I think most people that find themselves in that demographic are there because they love diving and they fit into the demographic not because they want to, but because it's by happenstance.

Sarah (01:01:37)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Jay (01:02:05)
What I see changing is that now there's an opening up for that diversity, that there's other ways and other approaches. And yes, scuba diving is expensive to get started. It can be a very expensive hobby to continue. It can be very homogenous in terms of who does it, but that change, that evolution comes from people bringing voice to different ways of diving, different ways of experiencing

And I'm excited that the dive table, and that's been an intention from the beginning, is not about that one storyline, but about all of it. And how do we continue to give voice and shed light to places maybe like you say that haven't had that. And that's an exciting thing for me. Being a person that, you know, I always say I'm a reluctant, you know, person of ethnicity because I didn't realize it until…

much later in my life, which is a whole different podcast. But I didn't realize I was a person of, you know, ethnic difference until much later in my life. And then I realized it, and then all the rest of it made sense, right, from growing up. Was like, oh, that was, that was this, that was that, that was this feeling. I had no idea that that's what I was experiencing. Because I just was, I guess, shielded from it in some ways, mentally.

Sarah (01:03:20)
Hmm.

Wow.

Thanks for watching.

Jay (01:03:36)
But for someone that's a little bit different than my favorite game in the world to play and when I'm traveling is, you know, where am I from? No one ever can guess it. If I don't open my mouth, I basically fit in everywhere. I look that weird, I guess. So it works, you know, it works for me. But I always look to myself as just a white dude and that's not the case. And it's not the case how others see me. And that's been very interesting journey for the last.

Sarah (01:04:01)
Mmm.

Jay (01:04:05)
Honestly, the last probably 10 years that I've had that wall opened of like, other people don't see me the way I see myself. That's very weird and very strange. That I think is a good metaphor for maybe people that the diversity that you're speaking about don't necessarily see themselves as the diversity in scuba diving, but other people might.

Sarah (01:04:07)
Yeah.

Hmm.

Yeah. No.

Jay (01:04:33)
And that's where I think the through line can be, which is awesome.

Sarah (01:04:36)
No, it's really powerful because I watch, there's this, there's this TikToker, because I'm on TikTok, you know. But she is, that's a cute little TikTok dance, for those of you watching the video. No, there's this woman who popped off on TikTok and just went absolutely viral.

Jay (01:04:50)
That's my TikTok. That's as far as I go.

Sarah (01:05:03)
because she's black and she's discovered scuba diving and it's like her favorite thing in the whole world and I want to have her on the podcast like I'm gonna send her the message because I want her to come on and talk about this experience but she's you know pointed out that certain materials there's no black divers she doesn't mean very many black divers and but having her like the way that her platform has just blown up

It's like, people want this, you know? Like, this is why social media is so powerful is because, like, we need this, you know? We need different people and we need to have it be open. That's something that, and if anybody's curious to follow her, she's, I believe her handle is Black Girl Blue World. She's incredible. I love her to pieces. I can't wait to meet her. But that's probably the most common thing that

Jay (01:05:54)
Very cool.

Sarah (01:06:02)
comments that I get from people that find my channel is I'm not intimidating. Like I don't come off as this my way or the highway kind of person when I'm teaching and I'm glad because that's not who I want to be ever. But that people are almost relieved that they found my channel because they just couldn't

connect with the other people that they were watching on YouTube. And that's important to me, you know, like that we don't give off this feeling of that standoffish, like you're not part of the club, so you can't be here kind of thing. And I don't know. I think the fact that I live in a van and I'm obviously not rich, I think that helps a lot. Um, but yeah, I, I just see things.

Jay (01:06:54)
Hahaha!

Sarah (01:07:00)
shifting in a way that's really exciting, really exciting.

Jay (01:07:05)
Well, this is awesome. I think we're, we're at our time for this episode. It didn't go exactly to script, which is exactly what I was hoping. It's great. I think, I think the passions for not only scuba, but why we're doing something like this podcast just, just are so strong and the, you know, for me, I, you know, there's days I'll be honest where it's just like, why am I doing this podcast, you know, like there's so much.

Sarah (01:07:09)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Jay (01:07:34)
uh, time and effort and energy and like, um, do people even listen and you get the stats back and okay, they do listen, but no one ever like, you know, do I really know that, you know, like blah, blah. And it just brings me back to the fact that like divergent voices are important and putting yourself in the position to do what you love and who you are and be who you are. And I think that's the heart and soul of, of what I hope we never lose in this is that

That's the whole purpose of this. Be who you are, evolve, grow, have opinions, thoughts, and then bring others along the journey. And, and that's it. And that's why I think, you know, our partnership and, and this season, I feel like we're, it's a brand new podcast. You know, it obviously is a brand new opportunity. Um, and I'm excited about the season. So I think that's all I got. I could probably talk another three hours, but there's, this has been awesome. Yeah, I know.

Sarah (01:08:04)
Mm.

What, you? You?

Jay (01:08:34)
Hey, when I say someone's verbose, it means something. Because I know I'm verbose. There are others that are more verbose than me.

Sarah (01:08:37)
Oh man.

Oh, I know, I know. Yeah, I don't have anything else for this either. I mean, I think I said it last year in this episode, this industry has absolutely slapped me around in so many ways and yet I keep coming back to it. So that to me is, that's some kind of love. I don't know if it's a healthy love, but you know, it is. I just, I...

Jay (01:09:10)
So I just might call that codependence. I don't know.

Sarah (01:09:14)
I have a problem there. We won't go into that. That's a whole other personal thing, but yeah, it's definitely, I'm happy to be here. And I'm glad that whoever does end up listening to this is here as well, because they're all important.

Jay (01:09:16)
Yeah. Whole different.

Absolutely. Well, good. Well, to wrap this one up, man, we, we have never done a good job of promoting what you should do. If you listen to this episode, how you should connect with us, it always feels weird, but I'm going to try it and say, look, we want to hear from you. We want you to be engaged. We want you to subscribe to this podcast, to the YouTube channel, to Sarah's YouTube channel. We want to

connect.

And so I am unabashedly telling you, be a part of this community by joining, subscribing, sending an email to jaya or sara or dani and grow this community alongside of us. So unabashedly saying, we want you to join us, but let us know you're out there in the season. You're still listening.

you're still engaged and what are you looking forward to for Sarah and I to talk about over the next year in this season? Sarah, any other way? How do I do promoting? I have no idea.

Sarah (01:10:42)
That was pretty good. We're also going to be working on our Facebook group. So TBD, we're working on that. But that's a great way to be more connected to a smaller community.

Jay (01:10:59)
Well, awesome. Any parting thoughts, Sarah, before we close this one down?

Sarah (01:11:05)
Nope, this was great. Thanks for having me. Or I guess this, now this is us. So you're not having me like, whoa.

Jay (01:11:11)
Yeah, I can say the same. Thanks for having me. Oh, the light just went out. Perfect. It's perfect timing. And that is lights out.

Sarah (01:11:16)
All of my lights have died. Yeah, that's lights out. All of my lights have died in the van. There's no more. So.

Jay (01:11:23)
Quite literally, the show is over, lights out. I love it. It cannot end any stronger than that. Well, awesome. Thanks, Sarah. Not thanks, I'll see you next time because we'll be doing this for the next foreseeable future together. All right, thanks everyone out there in the skewiverse. And we can't wait for you to die or to die with us for sure. But to join us on the next episode of The Dive Table.

Sarah (01:11:33)
Yeah.

Excellent.

Bye.