Full Episode - Ecotourism Defined by the UNWTO (United Nations World Tourism Organization) with Greg Wolf | S2E14

Jay (00:01.362)
Welcome to the dive table. I'm Jay Gardner and with me for our final and third episode all the way from across the country. Mr. Greg Wolf. Greg, how are you doing today?

Greg W (00:12.745)
I'm good man, how are ya?

Jay (00:14.743)
Did you go and watch any Indiana Jones movies between our last episode and this one?

Greg W (00:19.613)
No, no Indiana Jones, though. But my wife and I are rewatching Futurama because the new season came out on Hulu.

Jay (00:27.238)
You know, that's one I never really got into. I mean, I was big into Simpsons, big into Family Guy. I liked American Dad. And then Futurama, I just I just never bit the bullet there or whatever you want to call it never took the bait. Are you?

Greg W (00:41.441)
I'm a little offended. No, but it's a funny show and the cultural references they make it for easy watching. And we don't really pay too much attention to it but we wanted to binge watch all the new episodes when they came out instead of just waiting. So we're just redoing the whole series.

Jay (01:03.646)
Nice, nice. So for context here, I don't know if this is shareable or not, but I'm gonna share it and you can edit it out later. But your wife is pregnant with your first, right? So that's super exciting. And the reason I bring that up is because when my wife was pregnant, I had a realization the other day, literally two days ago, that I'm almost gonna be a parent for a decade, which is a crazy thought. Like I've been a year and a half until.

Greg W (01:15.969)
Yeah, very exciting.

Jay (01:31.914)
I've been a parent for a decade, but still, but 10 years ago now ish nine years ago, however you count those times. Um, my wife was pregnant as well with our first and she unfortunately got put on bed rest for the last four or five weeks of the pregnancy. And that is not a Futurama, but is where we started Game of Thrones. Yeah, we had never seen it before. And I was trying to find something that we both could watch that.

Cause she's not a big TV person at all. And so it was something that she wouldn't be bored out of her mind with. And I think it was like three or four seasons in. And so we were able to binge watch, you know, game of Thrones. And then it was like every Sunday they released something. So that was when my introduction to game of Thrones came in and it was, you know, pretty epic at the time and we followed it all the way through the end. Did you watch that one? Okay.

Greg W (02:23.445)
Yeah, Game of Thrones. Love Game of Thrones. Yeah, I still got to read the books. But House of Dragons was really good, too, that first season.

Jay (02:32.178)
It was it was so which house do you do you side with and all this stuff?

Greg W (02:37.293)
Oh man, how stark I guess. I mean, they're the classic good guys, you know? Everybody loves them. Envy, yeah, there's... So I mean, I don't know. I'm not too much of a Game of Thrones person. I grew up with Star Wars. Star Wars was my big thing.

Jay (02:43.99)
Yeah, can be, can be, yeah, can be, can be, can be taken that way.

Jay (02:58.75)
All right, that's fair. That's fair. Well, with that being said, as we've roamed around the galaxy from ancient times, Futurama and now Star Wars, for this episode, you had the cool idea of thinking about and talking about ecotourism. So do you wanna set this up a little bit? Where is this coming from for you and why are you interested?

Greg W (03:17.193)
Yeah, so ecotourism or just sustainable tourism practices in general, it's a huge part of the diving industry that I don't think gets a lot of publicity. And I wanted to talk about this a little bit and explore a little bit of it because of how much we can actually unpack and see what there actually really is to talk about with it. It's not something that's really

discussed often amongst divers and I think it's a really cool topic to explore.

Jay (03:52.842)
Yeah, it's kind of a kitschy thing. Like it's either a marketing ploy or like, you know, on the boat and use this sunscreen for eco, you know, to be eco-friendly type of thing. It's not really a, a thorough line of like a purposeful eco-friendly or eco-tourism based trip. It's more of a, a sideline or a marketing thing in the diving industry sometimes, which is, I think it's cool to talk.

Greg W (04:02.371)
Thank you.

Greg W (04:13.657)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's very true. I mean, if you look at the tourism industry, people are not really paying attention to sustainability efforts when they're on vacation. They don't wanna go on vacation and have to worry about their impact on wherever they're visiting. They go for a good time, not to feel bad and be on edge about how they're actually contributing to the environment that they're in. So...

as far as sustainability efforts and ecotourism go in the dive industry. The dive industry thrives on tourism and we can't ignore our impact as visitors into the underwater world or even other nations. It's make a big impact. We can't ignore it really. It's what our industry thrives on.

Jay (05:05.578)
Yeah, yeah, you go to any dive industry trade show. And I mean, this is my back of the napkin guesstimate, but somewhere between 40 and 60% of that show is tourism, is tourist destinations, right? Boats or, yeah, probably maybe even more than that, right? So yeah, it's a huge piece of our industry in general. And I think bringing more awareness around ecotourism and what it actually means, that it doesn't mean

Greg W (05:20.162)
More than.

Jay (05:34.614)
go feel guilty, right? It can mean something different. I think it's a cool episode to do, so, and very aligned with, I think, the purpose of this podcast. So, this episode, I think we're gonna do a little bit differently. Usually we kind of do a three-part episode and set things up, but this one, we wanted, Greg and I were looking at how do we approach this, and we found on, you know, from the United Nations, a world tourism organization, super interesting organization if you haven't yet went.

discovered that, but they had a very specific definition of ecotourism. And we thought it'd be interesting to kind of take that definition step by step. There's five parts to the definition. We'll take it step by step and look at step one and how that applies to diving and maybe where we're doing well and maybe where there's room for improvement or stories that we have, so on and so forth, to really explore this from.

an angle of larger than scuba diving, but then localized to our impact as divers, as we travel, as we go underwater. So we're super excited to do this episode and you ready to jump in?

Greg W (06:44.429)
Yeah, let's roll.

Jay (06:48.674)
All right, so let's start with this United Nations World Tourism Organization, um, the UNWTO, and they have a very specific definition of ecotourism. And they, they kind of define it in five parts. Uh, and this has been something that's been, uh, I think developed over time and is agreed upon.

at a global level, at least from United Nations perspective, of what ecotourism is. So the first component, they say, the first characteristic, and they have five of them, like I said, of ecotourism in their definition is this, and I'll read it verbatim. The first characteristic is all nature-based forms of tourism in which the main motivation of the tourist is the observation and appreciation of nature.

as well as the traditional cultures prevailing in natural areas. So nature-based forms of tourism where motivation is observation and appreciation, as well as observation and appreciation of the traditional cultures in the natural areas. So what does that mean for us as divers? I mean, what, how's your reaction to that first kind of characteristic there?

Greg W (08:06.553)
Well, that's basically everything that the dive industry does in all these tropical locations. When you talk about going to Bonaire, the Bahamas, or Hawaii, it's all about that nature-based form of tourism where you go and observe and appreciate the nature. So snorkeling, scuba diving, reef walks, glass bottom boat tours, that all contributes and adds up to coral reef tourism.

You know, it makes up a big industry for a lot of these smaller, less economically rich nations, these poorer nations. They thrive on a lot of these, this tourism to bring in people. The tourism industry makes up a huge part of their GDP. So going there as a visitor and contributing when you go and look at these nature reserves, that's what you're doing. It's your...

going out there and contributing to a form of ecotourism.

Jay (09:10.282)
Yeah, I find in this definition, this first characteristic, the word motivation to be really interesting there. And motivation is, is hard to measure, right? In the sense that, you know, there are multiple motivations that we might have to do something. But I think the motivation of us as an industry, as divers, when we travel, um, ought to be, and I think for the most part is observing and appreciating that nature that we're in, right?

I think there is some layers there. Uh, certainly there are people that, you know, the motivation may be different. Um, maybe the motivation is, we talked about treasure hunting before, or, you know, actually, you know, it's fishing. Um, you know, they've got in Florida, the big lion fish hunts, which there's a debate about, you know, is that good or bad and, and the argument prevailing right now is it's good because we're the.

We're the natural predator to the lionfish or not natural predator, but we're the only predator to the lionfish. It's killing the rest of it. Right. But, but again, there's a question there. Um, right. The motivation is a little bit. Is that to go kill the fish or is it to preserve the environment? But I think the, the word motivation linked back to observation and appreciation. I think that's where you get back to like, you know, are we able to truly appreciate

Greg W (10:12.401)
Yeah, they're an invasive species.

Jay (10:37.398)
those locations for where they are. And it kind of ties into, do we understand the way that a coral reef is formed? Do we understand how that geological formation that we're looking at in the cave happened? And that to me, at least for me, when I'm educating myself a little bit more about where I'm diving and the natural ecosystem that I'm gonna be a part of, then the appreciation level

goes up 10 fold, 20 fold, whatever it is. I mean, I was looking at some video of a friend of mine going through this French cave. And I mean, it's a totally different looking cave than what you'll see in Florida or what you see in Mexico. And he was talking about how they are in this cave that's actually under another river and how the water over however many millennia had formed out this.

And he knew the kind of the story behind how it was formed and all of the, you know, particular information that's relevant to that. And his level of appreciation for that cave, it wasn't just wet rocks, which is all caves are just wet rocks, right? That's basically, you know, cave divers just like looking at wet rocks. But his appreciation for how it was made and all those things. And I find sometimes on a dive boat, and I don't know about you, that the educational

Greg W (11:51.43)
I'm sorry.

Jay (12:04.658)
of the diver that's about to jump into whatever site the operator is taking them to, we're not as educated as maybe we could be, that I think limits our appreciation and maybe can excuse some of the bad habits or bad things that we kind of get ourselves into. I think we'll get into later in this episode for the appreciation side of it. So anyway, I guess the argument I'm trying to make is that the more knowledgeable we are about the environments that we're getting into.

the higher level of appreciation we can have for that experience. And I think that ties into our motivation. Like if our motivation is truly not just go look at pretty things, but to appreciate that nature, then there's also maybe a level before we even get on the plane where we're trying to understand that reef system or the species that are unique or endemic to that space or even the time of year has an influence on what you're going to see.

that levels a lot of the appreciation to a greater level in my mind.

Greg W (13:10.025)
Yeah, no, absolutely. From even a biological perspective, outside of the coral reef, all the fish that live on it, you know, there's so many different species out there and how they interact with the ecosystem as a whole. If you don't begin to appreciate the small cogs in the machine that make it run well, then you're not going to have a very clean burning or optimal machine. And it's the same thing with an ecosystem. If you take bits of it out.

You're only hurting the whole system. The whole system becomes jeopardized almost when you start removing bits of it. So having an appreciation for the ecosystem and the environment we dive in definitely adds to the experience.

Jay (13:56.33)
Yeah. The other piece that's interesting about this first characteristic that, uh, the UNWTO is, is defining here too, is, is the, they add in the idea of the traditional cultures prevailing in natural areas. And I found that interesting because again, you're, you're kind of now talking about the land brain and you're also talking about understanding the space that you're in. So.

Greg W (14:19.193)
Mm-hmm.

Jay (14:24.846)
You know, a stupid, for example, that I think a lot of divers have been to is when you talk about something like, you know, the Mayan Riviera, right? The, when you talk about Mexico and the Gulf there and, you know, largely a big tourist area for all sorts of reasons. I mean, not just divers, but divers it's like a Disneyland, you know, we have, you know, ocean, clear ocean with beautiful reefs, a couple of wrecks out there. We have.

You know, Cozumel, which is beautiful. And then we have the cave systems and the cenotes. I mean, it's just, you know, Concorpia or cornucopia of options to go dive. But that, that area is also a huge tourism area because of the Mayan temples, right. And the Maya that live there and even the names of a lot of the, the locations are in still in Mayan. And so again, when you think about things like appreciation of not just that

beautiful reef that's out there in Cozumel, but of the traditional culture that was there and that has thrived there for however many years and what's happening to them. I think that adds a wrinkle to how we even plan a trip and how we approach those things. So I think, you know, I'll pick on Americans for a moment, you know, because I've traveled a lot and we have a bad rep, let's say internationally sometimes in the sense that

You know, things get very, and the word is Americanized, right? For the American tourist. And we want that, you know, comfort level and expect, we have an expectation that wherever we travel should be just like home and we almost have an intolerance for some, some things that are different. And so a lot of the tourism agent, you know, industry kind of bends towards our will because we have the almighty dollar and

Things are very American in that sense. And I'm not saying that's wrong. I get it. What I am saying is an observation for me of traveling a lot internationally. And I think that part of the appreciation, observation of traditional culture is the willingness also to be uncomfortable for things to be not as they are at home and to appreciate them as such. And I think that that's again a mindset thing.

Jay (16:47.67)
uh, and, and maybe a planning thing that, um, that, you know, if, if you're going somewhere to, to be mindful of the culture that prevails there and how you can become, you know, a visitor of that and even a participant of that rather than a, you know, this ought to be more like I want it, you know, so I don't know. That I found that interesting as a second add-on to their definition here, because that is something that

kind of not happening under the water, but happening on top of the water that, that I think, uh, mindset wise is really important.

Greg W (17:22.465)
Yeah, yeah, it's, I guess that kind of begins to beg the question of how much, how much Americanization for any given nation is too much because, you know, as Americans and probably Europeans as well, I'm sure we make up a wide margin of the tourism industry. So how much of bending down to making us comfortable is tolerable for the

the sustainment of the local culture. So something to think about, how much do you sacrifice for profit?

Jay (17:58.962)
Yeah, it is something to think about. All right. That, that felt heavy. I'm sorry if I offended anyone out there. I probably did, but so be it. Um, you know, I think, I think there is a, uh, difference between someone who can be comfortable in the uncomfortable and someone who wants things to be very Americanized and I think that, that it's good for us to be a little more mindful of those things.

Greg W (18:03.609)
Well.

Greg W (18:22.969)
Well, the uncomfortable is where the experience really takes place. So you should look forward to being uncomfortable a little bit.

Jay (18:30.242)
I agree. I agree. Okay. So that's the first one. All right. The second characteristic, according to the United Nations WTO is this is short. It contains educational and interpretation features. Educational and interpretation features. But what's your, how does that apply to SCUBA?

Greg W (18:52.037)
If you look at the diving industry, especially in your open water classes, it's not really too talked about environmental concerns we have for diving. You know, we do talk about the environment and being neutrally buoyant, how we don't wanna touch the coral or just silt up the dive site or whatever it be, but it's not really discussed in the same way that you would in...

follow-up education or even when you get on a dive boat and you're taking a boat out to a you know coral reef in Florida or Bahamas and they say don't mess with the turtles or don't touch the coral reef Why is that stuff not really emphasized more in open water classes if it does have such an environmental impact and a long-term? impact on the economics of the industry itself I Pulled up some statistics from scuba nomics

which is a website that kind of goes into the economic statistical play of the diving industry. And from one of the surveys that was done in 2022, 79% of the divers surveyed indicated an importance to the environmental awareness of their diving, but only 19% of them stated that their instructors put an emphasis on this awareness in their entry-level course. That's an interesting little tidbit there. It's less than one-fifth.

of the diving instructors actually emphasized environmental awareness in their open water class. Yeah. So if another one was 86% of scuba diving instructors surveyed, judged environmental awareness to be an important topic, but less than half of them said that their training agency emphasized environmental conservation in the industry. 64% of them were self-taught. Most of that information coming from books.

Jay (20:24.918)
Hmm, interesting.

Jay (20:46.158)
Hmm. Yeah, I think it's interesting that the role that a training agency plays here, because I don't think it's fair to, to put the onus on the training agency to also be the, you know, eco tourism, um, source of truth, right? I think that there's a, because there's so many diverse ecosystems that we get into.

Greg W (20:48.504)
So.

Jay (21:15.786)
Right. And, and that they're the agency itself has to kind of absolve itself because you could be, you know, I entered in, in Texas in a lake versus, you know, Mexico in a, in a coral reef versus where you're at underneath a boat. So there's so, you know, how do you account for that? And, and it would be, you know, your open water would take you seven years to complete if you have to account for all of that, I think the, where the

the agency is accountable is two things. One I think is, is using it not as, I mean, I feel like oftentimes it's not tongue in cheek, but it's kind of not, it's just said for the sake of it's being said, it feels like a cover your ass type of thing, rather than an emphasis of look, we are going into the wild.

Greg W (22:02.563)
Mm-hmm.

Jay (22:08.686)
Like, and I don't think that is emphasized enough because there's this, this idea and a lot of the, the big box scuba that, you know, we want to make it super unthreatening and, you know, because that we need to grow the diving industry. And so we need to, you know, basically sugar coat everything. I mean, everything is sugar coated in those big, big box agencies. We don't mention the word, you know, death. Um, I mean, that's what, to me, that's stupid, you know, because you're not, you're not giving people.

a reality of what they're doing. We are going into a wild environment where we are not as human beings equipped to be without some sort of equipment. And anything can happen in that wild. And what we do in that wild environment has an impact on that wild environment. I mean, in national park you go into and there's a set of rules, right? Regulations and permits and you know, and look, don't screw with the bears because they will do X, Y and Z to you, right?

People have died on this trail, so stay on the trail head, right? And so there is a responsibility that even the national parks take on because you're in that wild environment. So I think that there is this issue of we've traded some of the reality of what we're doing in the training aspect of it for, we want it to be super approachable and easy and seem like it's just like,

you know, going for a Sunday stroll in the park and it's not. And so I think that's one area that I do think that agencies, if you're listening to this, can examine and say, are we actually preparing people to be in the wild or are we sugarcoating things too far where they don't realize the relationship between diving and, and the environment that we're going to do this in. And then I think the second thing

that I would kind of hold our agencies and our training more accountable to is from the viewpoint of choices we make in the way that we approach our hobby or our recreation. And so I know for me, you know, you're kind of like, there, and then this is hard because there's a whole side of the business that then is tourism. So book a trip with us, right. And, and la la.

Jay (24:33.762)
But I think also understanding the relationship between what we said in number one, the appreciation of something by understanding the ecology of it and the history and so on and so forth. That's an area again, that we can better prepare divers for. And I think that it all comes back down to the biggest portion, which is making open water just too darn fast, right. And too much, you know, it's, it's too fast, too equipment focused.

And not enough on the diver's mindset, the diver's readiness to approach a wild environment. And I think that all of that has been done to try and get more and more people through the front of the funnel. But then the backend of that is, well, our biggest problem in scuba is retention. And that's because we're not preparing divers to be in this environment, to appreciate it from an educational perspective, because we're rushing them through their open water. So.

Um, or at other trainings as well. It takes three days, you know, and now you're here's your advanced card. I think that contributes to the lack of retention because we don't get full appreciation of the activity or action undertaking. So there's my little, like I take on how the educational interpretation features that agencies have to play in preparing divers to actually go out and into these environments.

Greg W (25:59.065)
I'm right there with you and I think that was very well said. Your point that it's not entirely the agency's responsibility to cover every single little environmental nuance of what they go into is a really interesting point too because taking your example of the parks and staying on the trails with the bears, it's the same thing when you get on a dive boat.

to your destination is that you get another brief of, hey, stay off the coral, don't stick your hands out and try and put your finger inside of a shark's mouth. Don't touch the sea turtles. And those all make really good reminders, but you see people who are still, it doesn't quite grasp right there at the very moment before they jump in the water. So I think emphasizing our interactions with nature,

in the classroom before these students even get on the boat will do much more to solidify the idea in their mind without having to add on all that extra stress of remembering that whole dive brief right before they get in the water, especially for newer divers.

But it's true that the dive industry's main concern right now, aside from the environmental factors, is retention. And those three-day long courses that do so little to prepare divers is not only bad for the industry as far as retention goes, but it's also bad for the environment. There's a couple studies that I had pulled up here as well that talk about divers and our interactions with the ecosystems and the coral reefs that we dive on.

And one study that they did in the Philippines was that they shadowed 100 divers of varying skill levels anywhere between total beginner to about 100 dives. And they found that 88% of them made physical contact with the coral reef. 88% of them. And that's only one study. Cause I got another one here that says it's even higher, up to 91% of the divers made physical contact with the coral reef. Yeah.

Jay (28:01.998)
88%? Holy jeez.

Jay (28:13.578)
Wow. Yeah.

Greg W (28:14.877)
So if you know looking at these and looking at the statistics of the one that says 91% I want to point out that it does say that only 7% of them cause uh appear to cause skeletal breakage on the coral but even still I mean 90 you take the lower number right take 88% or even round it down give the benefit of the depth 80% of divers making contact with the coral reef on a

very significant amount. That eight out of 10 divers are touching the coral when they're not supposed to, there's something wrong with that.

Jay (28:54.862)
Yeah. Well, and I think, I think they, they define it a little farther in that definition, we'll get to it here specifically the impact there, but I think on the educational piece, this is where the, like you say, the local dive shop, the dive guide, right? The dive boat, the operation can really close the gap here because I think the

The knowledge base there is, okay, it's not just a rule. Don't touch the turtle. That feels like a rule. And then, and then my natural inclination is to touch the turtle. Cause someone told me not to, right? That that's not, that's not a good presentation of, of the, the reason behind it. It's, Hey, when we touched the turtles, here's the impact that has on this ecosystem. When we break coral that took.

Greg W (29:49.721)
Mm-hmm.

Jay (29:53.59)
hundreds of years to grow, here's the impact that has on the ecosystem in this location. I'll give a really stupid example here that bothers me. But there's a lake in Texas called Lake Travis, and there's a site called Windy Point that a lot of the, I mean a huge amount of divers in central Texas know this spot. And it's where a lot of open water dives take place.

And one of the practices that has kind of happened there, because there's a little shop, it's not really a shop, it's a stand, but you check in, you pay to go in. They have some, you know, snacks and Gatorade and all that. They sell these little Vienna sausages, you know, the weenies. And, and instructors there have got into kind of a habit or some, I should say, not all, of saying, Hey, if you do well in your open water checkout dives,

on the fourth dive, you can take some of these Vienna sausages down and feed the fish. And you go, okay. And it's funny because if you wear gloves at all and you're at your whatever, 10 foot stop, 20 foot stop, all these little sunfish that are around, come up and nibble your fingers because they look like, guess what? Vienna sausages, right? And there's an influence there.

Um, it, I say that as a funny story that I always get my fingers nibbled when I'm in that site because of that. But it kind of comes back to the educational aspect of teaching about that local dive site and why that's probably not a good idea, right. Um, to do that, uh, in, in a lot of different ways yet in your open water class, oh, my instructor, we're interacting with the, with the wildlife and we're, you know, we're, we're feeding them and this is what diving must be. Sets that expectation in some ways.

So again, I think that the gap of the local instructor, the local dive guide, the local dive operation and expressing why feeding, for example, the sunfish weenies is not a good idea because one, that's not a natural food to them, two, right, it's gonna make them dependent upon that food source for survival in some ways, or it's going to overgrow that population because that ecosystem can't sustain.

Jay (32:15.81)
that many sunfish without the weenies in it, so on and so forth, right? I'm just kind of having fun with this story, but you get my point.

Greg W (32:21.821)
And that list goes on all the way to don't feed the alligators or crocodiles while you're visiting Florida. But people do it.

Jay (32:27.622)
Right. Exactly. Which seems like a no duh. But it's not, you know, so again, I think explaining not just the rule, don't touch the whatever, but the impact, not say, don't touch the sea turtle, but instead say, if you touch the sea turtle, here is the impact that it has on this environment. And I think it's a good question to ask, does the person giving

the dive briefing on the boat actually know what happens. And if not, that's a gap of education, right?

Greg W (33:03.433)
Yeah, absolutely. And there's, I don't think anybody who like jumps in the water to go diving, to explore the reef and experience the reef is looking to do damage. I think it really just does come from an innocent ignorance out of it. And that's where that education, that gap really comes in. And what, as leaders of the industry,

The leaders of the industry really are the agencies. They're the ones that run the whole show. So what steps do they take as far as just that general education goes? Because you can have, like you said, different environments. You don't need to talk about caves in open water class, but where do most of your open water divers go? They get certified and then they go on vacation to these tropical locations with coral reefs and sharks and...

dolphins and turtles and there is no emphasis on the amount of potential damage they can do if they don't take their training Seriously and their skills seriously So that's something that I think when they were Taking these statistics about how many of the instructors think that the environmental awareness portion of the courses are and how little it's actually Talked about I think that's where

that gap really comes from is why aren't the agencies discussing or changing their practices to make divers capable of not destroying the reef. Because in those same studies that I was talking about for the divers that did make physical contact with the reef, they noted that there were multiple parts of the divers including their hands, bodies, and parts of the equipment that all made physical contact and contributed to destruction of the reef. But the biggest one

that the researchers noted in this specific study was fins. And that's something that you and I both know is why are fins, why are fins the biggest contributor? What about the divers training is making it so that fins are constantly being an issue for the preservation of these reefs?

Jay (35:24.23)
Yeah, let's pocket that one for number four on this list because I think there's a lot to say there. That's a good tee up. All right, let's move to number three and then we'll get to number four because I think there's a lot to say there. So number three I think is a weld up. But number three, according to the UNWTO ecotourism definition, the third characteristic is it is generally but not exclusively organized by specialized tour operators.

Greg W (35:26.278)
I'm sorry.

Greg W (35:31.361)
Oh yeah.

Jay (35:53.806)
for small groups. Service provider partners at the destinations tend to be small, locally owned businesses. And I can just say off the top, most all of our local dive operations or dive operations, depending on where you are, are typically fit this category. I mean, even the big ones still are small, locally owned businesses. Yeah, in comparison to other things. So I mean, I think.

Greg W (36:17.909)
in comparison.

Jay (36:22.058)
Yeah, usually organized. And, but I do think the only point I'll make here is that, that when you go to a destination like this, there are options. And I see a lot in, you know, questions from divers, whether it be social media or questions I get and things like that about like, Hey, I'm going here. Any, any recommendations on operator? And I think we can be a little bit more discerning in trying to figure out which operators.

If this is important to us, ecotourism is important to us, or have these practices as part of their operation. And, and they're not just, you know, marketing employees, but are, are really practicing these things and in how they approach that environment and that can be hard to find out and it can, you can be hit and miss where you think you've nailed it and it's not the case. But I think that's a consideration that we, as divers that, that are traveling somewhere.

can add into the mix or our expectation is to have an eco-friendly, quote unquote, whatever that means, right? Fitting this definition, but eco-conscious operator taking us somewhere rather than someone who isn't thinking about those things. And that's where your vote is your dollar and your vote is your time in some ways. So that's my only two cents on this third point is I think that there are some discernment pieces we can use.

Greg W (37:45.853)
Yeah, and the number of the local operators and their practices definitely contribute to ecotourism. You know, just discussing what we were talking about earlier is what kind of reefs are they doing on the boat? What rules do those local operators have that aren't necessarily required by law? Because a lot of the coral reefs, for example, will get like resting periods.

between seasons to help them kind of recuperate and recover. Do the local laws require you to not wear gloves, like in some destinations, because they believe that will help deter people from wanting to touch the reefs? And so are those dive operators enforcing those laws or those rules? Or maybe that's not a law in the country you're visiting, but the dive operator requires you not to wear the gloves anyway.

So little things like that can definitely make a big difference in the grand scheme of the welfare of the reefs that are being dived on.

Jay (38:53.31)
Yeah, no. So like a super interesting anecdotally story, not really anecdotal story here, but a good example of this is the city of Tulum in Mexico. So I was there about a year ago and I was hearing the story of how Tulum has just boomed, right, as a not just diving destination, but kind of a mindfulness and yoga and all these things combined into this, this mix of Tulum being this

super desirable travel location. And I can understand why it's going to, I love that part of the world. But what's interesting is the infrastructure for the city of Tulum or in the area thereby, um, was so unprepared for that type of explosion. That they were talking about the sewage system, basically being overrun and causing all sorts of havoc.

on the water systems and so on and so forth. That tourism, over tourism was the phrase that the locals were using, is causing all these other downstream effects. And so again, do I want to go stay in Tulum because of all the amazing things? Yeah, but I also need to be conscious of the way that my stay there is impacting the local ecosystem. So I might choose, for example, to call up our friends at Under the Jungle and see if that room's available.

right, or to stay somewhere else. Um, and not in the center of Tulum, even though that might be the most desirable spot for me, or if I'm going to do that, to understand the impacts of it and how that particular hotel or operator is dealing with mitigating their impacts of that. So again, it's just a little bit of the, going back to number two, the education, not blindly kind of like, you know, booking something without understanding the, the impacts that trip could take.

And it's not to feel guilty, it's just having some responsibility around it. So, um, again, we have choices, lots of choices as divers in, in terms of. The operators that we choose and the hotels that we choose to stay in and the food that we choose to eat and so on and so forth. And I think it's, it's combining the education along with asking those questions can be really helpful to minimizing our impact in our travel to do what we love.

Greg W (41:13.241)
Your story about the sewage systems in Tulum is a really good indicator of how just the volume of tourism in itself, the amount of tourists that go at any given time, could be problematic. And how a lot of infrastructure is not necessarily prepared to deal with the environmental impact of having so many people there. Because people, we leave trash, we use toilets, we eat food, it all...

produces some sort of waste or takes away from another environment or infrastructural setting in some way or another.

Jay (41:50.338)
Yeah, and there's a chicken and egg question there, right? Too. It's like, you can't really point whose fault is it? Well, the city of Tulum should have seen this coming and should build better infrastructure or tourists shouldn't travel there or, you know, you, you have this kind of like, it's not about pointing the finger of who to blame in that sense. I think the bigger point here is to understand that influence and, and then react to that. And I think if you, if you're not at least curious about how your

that you've always wanted to take is going to have an impact on the environment and the location that you want to be there, then that says something to me. It's something that you can find out and make choices that are maybe more beneficial all around and still get what you want. Still go diving in Cosmo, right? No big deal. But that's the choices that we make.

from a provider perspective, I think, has an influence. And yeah.

Greg W (42:52.557)
Yeah, as a balancing act, basically.

Jay (42:55.842)
Yeah. Okay. Here's number four. This is the meaty juicy you've been wanting to get to. So number four, again, according to the UNWTO, the fourth characteristic is ecotourism. It minimizes negative impacts upon the natural and social cultural environment. So there you go. Big T-ball served up, minimizes negative impacts. In other words, 91% of divers crashing into the reef.

Greg W (43:00.976)
Oh yeah.

Greg W (43:19.027)
Well...

Greg W (43:22.602)
Ugh.

Jay (43:23.722)
It is not ecotourism. Even if you're observing, you like it, well, if you crash into the goddamn reef, that's not minimizing your negative impact.

Greg W (43:25.081)
off.

Greg W (43:32.665)
So we already kind of talked about the socio-cultural and socio-economic part of tourism and the Americanization of all these remote locations. But then.

Jay (43:44.726)
I'm just realizing as I pound a monster during this whole thing. This episode sponsored by, don't worry, I will recycle this can. Sponsored by monster, sorry, sorry.

Greg W (43:48.057)
I'm sorry.

Greg W (43:56.981)
No, you're good. I can't remember the last time I had an energy drink. I drink a lot of coffee though. And I know that's probably not good for the environment either, the amount of coffee.

Jay (43:58.422)
Hahaha!

Jay (44:01.81)
Oh, I have such a love-hate. Yeah.

Jay (44:07.73)
Yeah, see, this is that episode where it's like, yeah, but look at the clothes you're wearing, Jay. You know, look at the, it's like, we're not trying to point fingers, but I know fingers will be pointed back. So it'll be what it is.

Greg W (44:19.877)
is what it is anyway. Well, we already talked about the Americanization and the cultural aspects that come with the tourism industry, but the natural impact on Mother Nature, that is something that I think is and probably always will be a hot topic for scuba divers and especially when you get to divers at a higher level, basically from advanced

all the way up to full DPVCCR cave explorers is what are we doing as an industry to Mother Nature. Yeah, and it's not pretty.

Jay (45:02.219)
To minimize our impact.

Jay (45:06.242)
Yeah. And I think for me, the, like you said, the, the negative impacts upon the natural environment, a reef, for example, that we've been talking about, I think are coming from, I think, what did you use the word ignorant? Good, good meaning. Ignorance. Yeah, good. I don't think anyone like jumps off the dive boat and goes like,

Greg W (45:25.209)
innocent ignorance.

Jay (45:31.914)
Well, I'm going to crash into the reef today. Like, that's my job. Like, yeah, here we go. I mean, maybe there's those people.

Greg W (45:37.017)
Well, I mean, you look at some people and you think maybe that is what they're trying to do.

Jay (45:42.578)
Yeah, that's true. I'd say the majority don't jump off the boat thinking that or, you know, but it happens. So your stats, you know, 80% being generous there, it happens. Why? And this is where you go back to, like, where does the onus lie? And you specifically mentioned that the biggest culprit of contact with the reef in this particular study was fins. And

One, I'm going to give an excuse as to why, and then I will knock that down. So one, I think your perception of yourself with fins on your body perception in the water, you've grown by like a foot at least, depending on the fins you're wearing. Some people have grown by three feet, right, with the fins. And so your perception of where your body ends, especially because you can't see the end of your body, typically, on your fins.

makes it challenging to then understand like when I'm clear of something, uh, you know, or whatever. So there's kind of, I think a reason that would be the case for sure. And that doesn't matter which type of, you know, propulsion technique you're using. The bigger thing I think is that, and I've talked to a lot of big box instructors about this particularly, because I asked, why don't you teach other types of propulsion?

And the answer I typically get back is, uh, because it, I would love to, but it takes too long and I only have this amount of time to get them certified. And it kind of goes back to this idea of have we sped up training to be too easy and too fast to make it, you know, less scary for the masses, um, and less skills oriented and the cost of that is 91% of people crashing into the reef with their fans.

because there are better ways of propulsion under the water that do take a little bit more time to learn, but something like a frog kick, right? A balanced, nice frog kick is gonna be so much more efficient for the diver and give the diver so much more control than what we typically see, which is this, you know, really exaggerated, you know, flutter kick, or some people call it the bicycle kick, or whatever you might call it.

Jay (48:07.778)
Um, that inherently by the nature of that kick is going to affect the environment that it's in unless we're, you know, 10 feet above it in some ways. Cause you look at just where the fin pushes the water and where that water column ends up hitting, it's going to hit something right. Instead of it being directly above you in the quantum column. And so this comes back to how do we minimize our negative impacts? I think it, it comes back to looking at diving.

as not just a tourist activity where we jump in the water and what happens, what happens, and we come back up in great dive, even though 80% of us crashed into the reef and we, you know, 17% of us broke coral. Well, guess how many dive boats went out that day? Guess how many times that's repeated? Guess how long that coral is going to be there, right? So on and so forth. Instead it's saying, how do we, we minimize it by looking at diving as a skill set, not just an equipment configuration.

And that's where I see the biggest gap in, in big box scuba is we talk about diving and scuba diving as such a equipment centered thing, how to work the equipment and that all we're talking about is the scuba part of scuba diving. We very rarely focus on the diver and the diver skill and diving in a minimalistically negative impact format.

requires some level of skill. And it's not just your get advanced and get this and perfect whatever buoyancy classes. It's setting that expectation from the start because your normal open water diver is then certified to go jump on that reef. And so I think there is an onus on the training aspect to bring a bigger emphasis on the skill that's required behind.

diving and I'm not saying every diver in an open water class needs to master a helicopter kick, right? Or master a back kick before they can get certified. What I am saying is can we actually measure a non impactful? I won't even say non-sulting because that's, that's maybe too high of a bar, but non impactful propulsion. Can we check that off the box? Can we check it off the box that they can descend without crashing into the bottom or perform a skill that's neutrally buoyant over

Jay (50:33.726)
a reef, I think that's on us as training agencies to say yes or no, because we are certifying you to then go out into this environment. And if all we've done is pin you to the bottom on your knees and had you do skills and watch to kick around and say, oh, well, you got from point A to point B, you know, at least this time the, you know, you just silted out the bottom. I think that that's where we then say as an agency.

you're certified to go anywhere and dive. And that's where I think we have some responsibility in looking at the skillset required, the motory skillset that's required of the diver to be less impactful to the environment that they're in. So that's my soapbox for the day, I guess against many, but I do feel strongly about that. And so what if it takes a little bit longer, right? That's better for the environment, it's better for the diver, it's better all around.

The only thing it's probably not better for is the bottom line of the profit, because you can't put as many people through as fast, but you you're solving on the other end retention because that person is going to have such more, more fun, such a better time. And you're not only retaining the diver, but you're preserving the environment that divers want to go diving and there's benefits all around. So there's my, my soap box. If you're listening, send the hate email to Jay at.

thedivetable.com and I will read it, but I feel strongly about that. And I think that, that the, that we need to be more upfront that diving is a learned skill that takes motor muscle and motor work. And we need to include that in our training of divers, not just a checkbox. Yeah. You had 30 pounds of lead on you and you sat on the bottom and you took your mask off, whatever, right? That's, that's not.

the motory skill that we're looking for in the environments that we're certifying divers to get out into.

Greg W (52:36.193)
Yeah, we're gonna have to make an episode four where we read all this hate mail we're about to get. Because I'm right there with you. I'm just gonna repeat what you said in a less than nice way. So I'm ready to make some enemies and I'll give my email out for all the hate mail afterwards. But when you talked about specifically the biomechanical movements of divers underwater with-

Jay (52:44.048)
Exactly.

Jay (52:51.703)
Ha ha ha!

Greg W (53:04.493)
choosing a specific kick, you know, like a frog kick over a flutter kick and the direction of the water and the thing goes and that does add up that that's a true thing for sure. I think the other emphasis that goes on without coming across as like a scuba diving and know it all is gonna be the proper weighting of it right so if you look at all these divers in the water

the biomechanical part of it being heads up is an issue. And then if they're heads up, that means their fins are down. And if their fins are down, that's where the reef is. So how do we tackle this skill issue of divers getting into trim so that even if they are not using a non-silting kick, like let's say they still are using a flutter kick, how do we even minimize the impact of a flutter kick?

by getting them in the right body position. And this starts with any instructor can go out there and in their next class, do this one thing that will have the greatest impact on their students as far as getting them into the proper position. And it is, get off your knees from the bottom of the pool or the reef or wherever, just don't do like it.

You talk about having a timeframe of having your students, having to push students through at a certain time, but you don't really need to impact that timeframe by getting them to lie down on their stomach and taking 30 seconds, being like, okay, try and do this neutrally buoyant. Because even if you're in three feet of water and they crash into the bottom of the pool or they pop back up to the surface while.

trying to take a regulator out of their mouth or trying to clear a mask, you're setting the foundation for better skills and you're setting a foundation for good habits. So that's it, I'll take my hate mail.

Jay (55:08.65)
Hahaha

Greg W (55:11.081)
That's it. It's such a simple solution that I really do believe will go a long way. Even if you don't have the time to do the real hard work of getting your students neutrally buoyant, set them on the path that will help them build good habits.

Jay (55:12.372)
Get off the bottom. Yeah.

Jay (55:33.054)
Yeah. And I mean, okay, let's just imagine a world where we had the scuba police, which we don't want, but I'm just saying, imagine a world. This is a good way to think about that as an instructor, uh, is let's just say that your student is one of the ones that of the 17% in Greg's study that broke the coral. And there's a fine for that. And they go and look at the C card and say, well, who signed you off as you're ready to be in this environment? Oh,

Greg W (55:54.189)
Seven for six.

Jay (56:03.294)
It's Greg Wolf. Greg gets a letter in the mail. Hey, your student so-and-so broke this coral and it'll equals this amount per year that coral was alive. You're now fined X amount of dollars. I guarantee you in Greg's next open water class, he's thinking about not getting that fine. Now I'm not saying that's fair. And I'm not saying that that's the way it should be. That's definitely not the way it should be. But if you take that level of responsibility because you are the certifying instructor.

You are the one, not the agency, you are the one as the instructor that says, yes, this person's ready to go dive in 60 feet of water wherever they want to, because that's what that card says. Are they ready to be in a sensitive environment or any environment that they could break stuff? Or are you certifying them, I am certifying you to be able to go in 60 feet of water as long as you kneel on the bottom and don't swim? That's a good question, right? And I-

Greg W (57:00.929)
Well, there is a liability to that. There is that potential for the fine, because if you look at the quality of the training for the diver that is causing these environmental impacts, think about how much more dangerous that type of diver is to themselves or to others from a safety standpoint about accidents. So by taking shortcuts in your training, you're not only damaging the environment, but you're also setting yourself up to be sued in the future.

Jay (57:21.506)
Yeah. Yep.

Jay (57:30.378)
Yeah. And I'll absolve some instructors too, because a lot of instructors are taught to teach to the standards. So there is an aspect of if the standards say this, this is what I teach to, or how I'm supposed to do it. And I get that. And a lot of instructors have said to me, I wish I could do it differently, but this is what the standards say. And I think the overarching thing is not to debate, is it the agency or the instructor or the divers fault? I would say there's copability on all three, right?

but is more or less to say as an instructor, if you know better, how do you prepare that student better? And yeah, it may be outside of the small amount of time that you have, but ultimately your name goes on their card and you're saying this diver's ready. And I think for me, at least as an instructor, I take that pretty seriously, because I think that I wanna preserve the environments that are out there. And I think that...

I have a role to play in not only myself minimizing my negative impacts as a diver, but the students that I work with and that I certify also minimizing their negative impacts. And there's an exponential growth factor to that. That if we all just took that view, regardless of what the standards say, right, that we take that accountability, it helps a little bit. And I know that, you know, I'm not trying to point fingers at instructors and...

And call them, you know, that they're causing all this, but. I will say there's a different path. And I think that it's hard to step out on that path sometimes because it's outside of maybe what you were taught or outside of what the standards say. And, um, my encouragement is again, to look at kind of the bigger picture, which is, Hey, we all want these sites to be there for at least the rest of our lifetimes so that we can go diving on them. And they won't. If we continue to produce divers that.

crash into coral reefs and break them, the coral won't be there, grow back in our lifetime. And that's the hard part.

Greg W (59:29.813)
I disagree with you, Jay, about how there's no true culpability for someone. I don't think it's the student's fault, right? I think we can surely observe the student from any wrongdoing based on what they are going into the class to learn. But there has to be some level of responsibility that takes place.

Jay (59:32.174)
Hmm.

Jay (59:40.597)
Hmm.

Greg W (59:56.837)
and that responsibility, if it's not going to be on the student, it has to be on either the instructor or the training agency. So the other question comes to be who is letting who teach? And if the training agency is letting a specific instructor teach, where is the quality assurance in that instructor? And what is the message or the goal of the training agency when dealing with

Jay (01:00:16.397)
Mm-hmm.

Greg W (01:00:26.345)
their instructors as far as teaching what the materials are and what the standards are. You know, I don't think that can be something that's ignored.

Jay (01:00:30.946)
Mm-hmm.

Jay (01:00:35.838)
Yeah. Well said. Well said. Yeah. We, we, the hate meal is definitely coming for this episode.

Greg W (01:00:40.733)
Yeah, no, I'm ready. I'm going to get a letter in. I'm as an instructor. I'm probably going to get a letter and be like, oh, why did you say that?

Jay (01:00:48.126)
Yeah, yeah, I'm lucky I won't get that letter because, but at the same time, I know I'll get all the emails. So okay, let's wrap this up. The fifth and final characteristic, which is like five, six, seven, eight, it's lumped a big one here. But essentially, I'll read it to you and then I'll sum it up. So reading the fifth characteristic is, ecotourism supports the maintenance of natural areas which are used as ecotourism tractions.

Greg W (01:00:52.249)
I'm sorry.

Greg W (01:01:03.261)
Yeah.

Jay (01:01:17.45)
by either generating economic benefits for host communities, organizations and authorities that manage natural areas with conservation purposes, or providing alternative employment and income opportunities for local communities, and or increasing awareness towards the conservation of natural and cultural assets, both among locals and tourists. So I think the big takeaway from that one is that ecotourism is helping.

support more ecotourism, right? So there are economic benefits, wealth, employment, awareness, so on and so forth. But it's, it's making it so that you can come back is essentially the idea or the other people can come behind you is number five.

Greg W (01:02:04.205)
Yeah, yeah, it's I mean, eco tourism in of itself isn't a bad thing. I know we really focused on a lot of the negativity in this. But if you look at like the positive, the Bahamas, they make eight billion dollars a year from 11 million different tourists that come in. And that's just on reef tourism alone. That doesn't include.

all the beaches and the resorts and everything. So it's a huge economic factor that does benefit the local area as far as tourism goes.

Jay (01:02:36.682)
Yeah, I think that diving does a pretty good job, at least in word of mouth, in the increasing awareness of great dive sites. I think maybe we can add to our conversations that we share. Like when I call you up and go like, dude, I just has amazing dive at this place. You got to go dive this place or we got to go do it together. Um, that there's also maybe a bend towards the rest of this, which is, here's the educational aspect of it.

Greg W (01:02:42.817)
Mm.

Jay (01:03:06.018)
Here's why it's important for conservation. So I mean, I think the word of mouth stuff is really well handled within divers and obviously there's more well known places than others, but that increasing awareness towards the conservation of natural cultural assets, I think is something that we do well already and maybe could even enhance a little bit if we're able to add in the conservation perspective.

Um, to that I think would be cool, but, but ultimately, like you said, I think that there's a lot of economic benefit, um, and a lot of employment opportunity and so on and so forth that gets developed from scuba divers traveling. Um, I think that, that we can have our cake and eat it too, that we can do those things and still preserve the dive sites that we want to dive on and not, you know, destroy them for future generations. Um, and I think that comes back to maybe to wrap up what we've been saying all along, which is, you know, the.

the entire kind of stack from agency to training to diver of including, Hey, we want to minimize the negative impacts of what we do. And so we need to be educated on how we impact the environment, both on the surface and below the surface and how our skillsets can improve to better preserve that environment. And I'm not saying everybody needs to have, you know, a cave level

control of their body in the water. That would be great. Cause I know for me, my enjoyment goes way up if I'm in control, right? Or as if I'm not, and I go cruising past the thing I want them to take a picture of without being able to stop, it's frustrating. That's a personal thing. But if you extract that out into more of a global view, when we're able to increase our skillset in order to minimize our impact.

so we can come back and enjoy that spot time and time again, that benefits everybody. And that I think is if you're not experiencing that type of training, or you're not getting what you need from that instructor, there are lots of other places to turn. And I'll leave it at that in terms of, you know, but if you're not learning how to be neutrally buoyant, and like I said, you don't have to be in perfect buoyancy control within, you know.

Jay (01:05:30.758)
six inches and all the things that, you know, get thrown around in terms of, you know, my style of diving, DIR and what requires, what's required for you to become an instructor there, right? Is, is pretty, pretty stringent, but instead in the sense that, Hey, I'm, I am able to be in control. I've built my skills enough up to be able to be in control and to not be a nuisance to the environments I want to dive in. I think that's maybe the bar and, and that is a mindset thing.

a skillset thing and a training thing. And, and I'll be, I mean, I'll be frank that I believe scuba diving is a skill. You remove all the gear. There are body mechanics involved in being a safe diver, not only for yourself and for your team, but for the environment that you're diving in. And if you don't have that skill or you haven't been shown what that skill looks like yet, that to me is on you because it's readily available to find.

on this crazy thing called the intro webs. Um, and there are tons of instructors out there that are willing to teach that type of skill. Um, I think so I'll leave it with that. How do we beat everybody up? Agencies, instructors, divers, no one, including myself.

Greg W (01:06:44.249)
Well, yeah, no, I can beat myself up too for it. But I mean, like, like you said, if you're not aware of the, the alternative, the better way of doing things, the, the ability to find instructors and information about what you should look like in the water and what you should be doing in the water, you got to live under a rock.

I mean, it's on Facebook, it's on Instagram. And I mean, like even like the Instagram influencers, some of them are still kneeling and doing all sorts of stuff that's just building bad habits within the industry. And it's rough, especially if you're coming from the outside and you don't know.

Jay (01:07:14.339)
Ha ha.

Jay (01:07:34.442)
Yeah, yeah. And I don't think that skill's hard to build. I think it just takes some time, you know.

Greg W (01:07:37.889)
Not at all, no. And it doesn't have to be perfect. Like you said, it doesn't have to be perfect. If it was easy, then you wouldn't need instructors. We as instructors are there to teach and guide. And if the instructors that you've been exposed to that are not guiding you in a way that will make you better, then at that point, they're really just stealing your money.

Jay (01:07:46.734)
true. Yeah.

Jay (01:08:04.702)
Yeah. All right. Well, this has been good. So shout out to the UNWTO for their definition. And I think we've beat a little bit of everybody up today, which is great. And, you know, I think that it's not a matter of guilt. It's a matter of awareness, which is the goal here. And I think it's also a matter of facts. I mean, if you don't even need Greg's statistics here to if you're open your eyes on a reef dive, the next reef dive you take.

you'll probably see the same thing. And so again, does it, does it pass the eye test? And I know I've been on a lot of dive trips where you jump in the water and you just see it and it's sad. And how do I, I don't know what to say when I'm back on that boat. You know, I mean, usually it's the person that has the big ass dive knife strapped to one side and it's talking about all the big dives they went on and you know, how great they are and all these things. And then you see

crash there goes, you know, a thousand year old coral or whatever, however long it's been there. And like, oh, you know, just as one time, you know, I just, you know, someone was wrong with my BCD and you go like, I don't really know how to respond. What I want to say is like, you know, you, you Muppet, get yourself together. Exactly. Like that's a, that's what I'm whispering to myself in my, in my regulator, but at the, at the same time, like,

Greg W (01:09:23.167)
I'm sorry.

Jay (01:09:30.946)
Do you blame the diver? Do you blame the training? You know, there's a lot of layers here. So I just think if we all aspire to preserve the environment we want to dive in, then it requires us to be better and we can get better. And that's maybe the headline takeaway here. So good. Was this fun for you? I don't know.

Greg W (01:09:50.63)
Yeah, you know what you know, you know what you don't know, you don't know what you don't know. And I know that I can receive my hate mail at wolfscooba.gmail.com. Yeah, oh man, Tuesday my phone is just gonna blow up.

Jay (01:10:00.758)
Wolfskuba at gmail.com. All right, get ready. Here it comes. I'm sure it's coming.

I also hope that on the other side of that, that if you are nodding your head along with this episode, that you add your voice to that. I don't think the purpose that Greg and I had in this episode was to come out and beat people up. I think our purpose was to speak honestly about our observations when it comes to our industry and this definition of how we fit it and how we don't. And in some ways we do a great job and in other ways there's a lot of room for improvement. If we truly want to be...

uh, stewards of the environment in the wild that we're diving in. Um, I think that there's, there's both good and room for improvement. So well said that fair enough. Great.

Greg W (01:10:47.785)
Yeah, I mean, I, like you said, I'm not trying to beat anybody up. I genuinely love this sport, this art style, and this lifestyle that we all take part in. And so, you know, if this is hard news for some people to hear, I understand, I get it. The only thing you can do is move forward. And if you're already on the path of righteousness for environmental conservation, then keep it up.

Jay (01:11:14.186)
Yeah. And let us know because we'd love to support you. All right. Well, good. Well, Greg, thank you for the last three episodes. I think that this ties right back into archaeology and the preservation of archaeological sites. And now we've kind of expanded the scope and, um, and congratulations. I think you're, you're pretty close to your degree in a few months here and a new baby and all of these things. And so, uh, we will definitely be able to get in the water soon together.

Um, and go diving and more than that, if you want to reach out to Greg, please do awesome guy, um, awesome instructor, or, or he, he is on his way, I think, to becoming another certified instructor, right with a different agency, um, and a few things, so reach out to him, um, check out his, his work. And if you have a job that you just, you know, around underwater archeology, I think Greg would like to hear from you. Right.

Greg W (01:12:05.445)
out. I do. I would very much like to hear about that.

Jay (01:12:09.77)
Yeah, it's maybe, you know, making sure that the sewage, you know, pipes are, are well documented in Tulum. Call Greg. He's got it. No worries.

Greg W (01:12:20.569)
Please don't call me about that. No, hopefully I can get away from scraping boats and anything sewage water related. That's my goal right now.

Jay (01:12:28.476)
Yes.

Yes, good point. Good point, that's a good goal. Well, any parting thoughts, Greg? Again, just wanted to say thank you for being on the show and for the last three episodes.

Greg W (01:12:38.873)
Thank you for having me and I really enjoyed our couple of episodes of learning together and discussing all sorts of cool stuff. So thank you.

Jay (01:12:51.466)
Yeah, absolutely. And I'm sure we'll, this will be one of many to come. I'm sure. So thanks again, Greg. And if you enjoyed this episode, make sure that you subscribe wherever you listen to your podcast, whether that be Apple or Spotify or iHeartRadio subscribe. So you get notified when new episodes drop. And if you want to see what Greg and I look like, if you've been listening to only the podcast audio version,

Uh, happy to say that our YouTube channel is up and running and producer Daniel has been posting lots of different clips so you can see, um, the fact that I have a face for radio and that Greg has a face for podcasts. Uh, so you can, you can kind of see what we look like and what this episode looks like when we record it. So, um, that's a YouTube at the dive table. So YouTube, I think it's backslash at the dive table or however that works with YouTube so you can check us out there.

Thanks again out there in the scuba verse for joining us. And we hope you come back for the next episode of the Dive Table.